Pick Your Team Cowboys v Warriors - Round 14, 2024 PICK YOUR TEAM

[Damo]

Nathan CLeary and Luai being the obvious model everyone dreams of.

Cleary could have spent his career eclipsing Luai out of the dialogue that is Penrith ball.

Cleary and Luai have very similar differences in receipts, kick metres, runs etc as SJ and both his partners have in the past season and a half.

 

[Juno]

Feel like I have been sticking the boot into SJ a fair bit, part of that relates to a sense that over his career he has been a getting a pass by Warriors fans in all areas because of his undoubted genius.
He is going to retire arguably the greatest Warrior. So lets be clear I see SJ as one of the best players I have ever seen and certainly in NZs all time top five, in the discussion of the top three, and still there when the name is pulled out of the hat for the G.O.A.T. "Johnson Marshall, Graham"

Other halves have had difficulty pairing with Johnson, over his career the closest he has come to having a strong relationship with a partner is at test level with Foran.

But Foran like other SJ suitors kinda ends up being sucked into SJs event horizon.

The new NRL needs two very active halves to win the comp, a running guy and an organizer.

Nathan CLeary and Luai being the obvious model everyone dreams of.

Cleary could have spent his career eclipsing Luai out of the dialogue that is Penrith ball.

We should all be watching with open minds for the second half of the no SJ experiment - the 'return of the Princess'.

TMM showed he has a few sly tricks near a try line that have sorely ignored by our chief play maker.

The summing up of the case is coming, against the Cowboys the jury will hear the closing arguments of the prosecution and the defence.

SJ's plays work if they're not predictable, not the constant go-to. TMT's plays work well too as we've just seen.
Wouldn't it be fun and effective if the opposition didn't know which option was going to be used where and when?
Lets hope they get a real combo going...

 

[sup42]

Cleary and Luai have very similar differences in receipts, kick metres, runs etc as SJ and both his partners have in the past season and a half.

It comes down to timing and context though eh.

If you go right side, right side, right side....nothing happening shovel a ball left like a robot then the opposition is going to work that out after one season of it working.

Meaning, right side right side right side is shut down and shovel it left is even easier counter.

Which why without Johnson, the Panthers and Dolphins had no idea what TMM and CNK, or TMM and CHT were going to do.

Stats may be the same, context changes with change of game plan and personnel.

The when is even more important than the what (when the left is used, rather than how often).

Cleary and Luai are right side dominant but Luai gets a lot of running opportunities. I would even go so far as to say his running game is overated when compared to Johnsons running game of old, Benjis even Stacey Jones....sure, Luai is a able stepper and runner but he is no Ben Barba if you know what I mean. Hell he ain't even as slight of foot as Henry Paul. Like I say, overrated by gushing Aussie media as a great running half.

That is not to say that I do not rate him, as a package, an all round package, Luai is a wonderful player, I will kill to have him in the Warriors.

 

[sup42]

SJ's plays work if they're not predictable, not the constant go-to. TMT's plays work well too as we've just seen.
Wouldn't it be fun and effective if the opposition didn't know which option was going to be used where and when?
Lets hope they get a real combo going...

Nailed it.

The 'When' is a communication issue, choosing when, fails when one person is too dominant over the other voice.

These boys need to talk. Not TMM. Not just Johnson. The pair of them need to sort out their listening skills.


I keep pointing fingers at SJ because that is what we are seeing, only one side of a two armed animal listening to the creatures brain.

 

[CWC]

I think one of the reasons we won were also due to the fact that the oppositions have no idea what we were doing with the new halves pairings, and they will be worked out eventually, which means we still need SJ back but they need throw attacks at them on both sides (or even swap sides) to keep the defense busy and stretched instead of leaning to the middle or our right all day

Speaking of which, would love to read that stats/heat map website again with the analysis, the map would be so interesting to read this time, anyone has it?

 

[Up the guttz]

TMM was getting ball at 6 but was ineffective due to no go forward in the middle. Every time he got the ball he was cramped up on the short side with the D in his face. No idea how he has become a scapegoat. The whole team was playing so shit over that period, he was never going to be a one man hero in those circumstances.

 

[Brightman]

I keep pointing fingers at SJ because that is what we are seeing, only one side of a two armed animal listening to the creatures brain.

I believe it was the game when Metcalf went down SJ managed both sides of the attack and it went well, the issue as I see it is two fold.
1. SJ is running the plays on the right as he's supposed to, just like last season but,
2. The whole team's effort plays fell off a cliff soon after which exacerbated the right side attack that every team was now prepared for.
SJ should play 6 on the left and second fiddle to TMM until the magic has returned as the team has shown their effort plays are well and truly back..

 

[Inruin]

I believe it was the game when Metcalf went down SJ managed both sides of the attack and it went well, the issue as I see it is two fold.
1. SJ is running the plays on the right as he's supposed to, just like last season but,
2. The whole team's effort plays fell off a cliff soon after which exacerbated the right side attack that every team was now prepared for.
SJ should play 6 on the left and second fiddle to TMM until the magic has returned as the team has shown their effort plays are well and truly back..

I think the TMM/CHT combo against the Dolphins showed a very good template for moving forward this season. Whether that's an SJ/TMM or a SJ/CHT pairing for future games

 

[sup42]

I think one of the reasons we won were also due to the fact that the oppositions have no idea what we were doing with the new halves pairings, and they will be worked out eventually, which means we still need SJ back but they need throw attacks at them on both sides (or even swap sides) to keep the defense busy and stretched instead of leaning to the middle or our right all day

Speaking of which, would love to read that stats/heat map website again with the analysis, the map would be so interesting to read this time, anyone has it?

It would take a long time to work out an odd combination like Charnze and Te Maire. It would take a while to work out TMM and CHT, but not as long as an odd ball selection like CNK and TMM.

Mostly because the CNK TMM combination does not know what it is going to do either (in a good way, CNK is not a trained classical pianist, he is a music by ear Jazz musician, chucked on a Steinway and told just jam some chords the band will follow).

When Webster threw those two together he knew what he was doing. It was the most radical spine move any Warriors coach has ever made in our history, hell....CNK ain't even a ball player...he just runs and runs....and TMM ain't a game organizer....neither of them are kickers, so what the bloody hell was Webster even thinking throwing those two against the Panthers?

TMM said in the post match that Webster had a plan, he made the plan very simple, and they trained it all week. TMM also said the plan had tricks in it from Websters Panther days.

You could see what Webster did when you watch enough replays.

Webster took the Panthers Kryptonite that the Eels invented (the Eels have been beating up on the Penrith Juggernaut using second phase non stop eyes up football with constant ball promotion to kill the cheating pushing sideways in the tackle by the Panthers gang tacklers).

Well actually the Eels did not invent that style, the Auckland Warriors did. You heard me right, the Auckland team, not the NZ Warriors. And even they did not invent it Per Se. The NZ Kiwis invented that style of play before the Warriors existed - then the Auckland Vulcans were renowned for it - then the Auckland Warriors....and eventually the Winfield cup caught on and called it Jungle ball.

Excuse me everyone for the history lesson but the evolution of second phase in Rugby league is a pet topic, because it was invented here and has for a very long time been acknowledged by British League callers and Australians alike as NZ Rugby league style, it is a uniquely Polynesian style of play first made famous by NZ Maori sides in both Rugby codes.

The Dragons adapted it and used it against the Warriors, which is why for a pretty shit club they hold our worst record against.

The same second phase game famously defeated the Storm when the Warriors employed it for endless upsets (getting to my point now) because second phase upsets structure.

Penrith hate it for the same reason the Storm hate it.

They are both structured highly coached sides, with strangling type methods of making a kill, which includes mirco management and skills training focused on cheating the rules around the play the ball.

In other words they are highly technical teams. Which means as we became polished and structured under Webster, our predictability became a double edged sword. It is like the new kid trying to beat the champ by copying the Champs boxing style in one pre fight camp.

Which is why people like a half like Metcalf, for variation, to threaten the boring ass strangle wall of your typical top four NRL teams.

Hell we have seen the likes of Melcalf before, the calls for his Xfactor are a stuck record around here....we put a 'Metcalf type' on steroids at the head of our campaigns for years....the young 'Shaun what is he going to do next Johnson'.

And here we are still title less.

Which is why I believe the answer is this:

To win the NRL the Warriors need to master and stick to the Australian Rugby league highly structured template, the same one the Kiwis have evolved into, shelving their historic roots in jungle ball, without completely abandoning them, park it down the list of priorities as a tool to be used come the time, not as a model for how to win the NRL.

And the Warriors need to ignore the fans of 2024 around that style being too readable.

I say the opposite, I say now that it is being challenged, get better at it.

And if that structured game plan is not working, then define what 'not working' means...break it down, because if we are playing ultra structure and being shut down on attack, while still achieving the other metrics of Webster ball (when we play Webster ball well, we are camped in the opponents end and they rarely see ball in ours) then and only then, should we should be talking about the problems with scoring, as an after fact, as a secondary lesser problem to our winning defensive template, that needs minor adjustments and variation.

In a game where the scoreline is 12 nil or less come the 80th minute we should be satisfied win or lose, we should appreciate the field position from Webster ball before demanding change. Rather than throw out the plan, lets imagine low scoring games where we only need to find 13+ to make top four and win titles. To me that is the secret. It always been the secret. The Warriors will win the NRL when they can emulate the Kiwis and play in 12 point games.

Try tell me that if we become a 12 nil or less defensive shut out side, that this is the wrong platform to aim for? Heck no! it ain't! Surely with the kind of territorial dominance we have been enjoying in games (especially when we lose) surely the Warriors have a platform to engineer a couple of tweaks to score more than twice in an NRL game.

This is why I say don't chuck the model away when we are losing. Only small adjustments needed.

Much better I say than trying to find more Xfactor and all these other meaningless un measurable, inconsistent ideas about how we should be playing.

 

[Beastmode]

SJ's plays work if they're not predictable, not the constant go-to. TMT's plays work well too as we've just seen.
Wouldn't it be fun and effective if the opposition didn't know which option was going to be used where and when?
Lets hope they get a real combo going...

SJ’s right side plays also work if your ruck speed is quicker and you draw in defenders. Not enough credit is given to Dylan Walker on how quick he was to accelerate to the D line then give a quick pass to TMM. Old hands Tohu was stifling plays with his play the ball speed and passing - @MrFrankWhite will agree with me here

If you look at Taines last try against the panthers close to the line you will see exactly what I mean.. Panthers line were in shambles because the speed we played at was twice as fast and the inner D were worried about both TMM and Walker taking on the line… with SJ they don’t see that threat

 

[Kav1]

Also is it time we discuss CNK and his edict that he came here to play fullback only?

I remember thinking at the time that players saying they want positions is not a good thing imo, I prefer they take what they're given and make the most of it for the sake of the team.

Also I am looking forward to the day Webster changes his mind on something like the CNK at FB public media statements.

Good coaches have to be able to never say never.

When did he say that he made an edict to play fullback only?

Feel like I have been sticking the boot into SJ a fair bit, part of that relates to a sense that over his career he has been a getting a pass by Warriors fans in all areas because of his undoubted genius.
He is going to retire arguably the greatest Warrior. So lets be clear I see SJ as one of the best players I have ever seen and certainly in NZs all time top five, in the discussion of the top three, and still there when the name is pulled out of the hat for the G.O.A.T. "Johnson,Marshall, Jones, Graham"

Other halves have had difficulty pairing with Johnson, over his career the closest he has come to having a strong relationship with a partner is at test level with Foran.

But Foran like other SJ suitors kinda ends up being sucked into SJs event horizon.

The new NRL needs two very active halves to win the comp, a running guy and an organizer.

Nathan CLeary and Luai being the obvious model everyone dreams of.

Cleary could have spent his career eclipsing Luai out of the dialogue that is Penrith ball.

We should all be watching with open minds for the second half of the no SJ experiment - the 'return of the Princess'.

TMM showed he has a few sly tricks near a try line that have sorely ignored by our chief play maker.

The summing up of the case is coming, against the Cowboys the jury will hear the closing arguments of the prosecution and the defence.

Shaun seems to have cut back on forcing goal line dropouts to almost zero whereas Te Maire made three in a row against the Dolphins (finally resulting in a try to Marata). It will be interesting to see how Webby responds with the use of this practice by both SJ and/or TMM.

 

[Beastmode]

When did he say that he made an edict to play fullback only?

Shaun seems to have cut back on forcing goal line dropouts to almost zero whereas Te Maire made three in a row against the Dolphins (finally resulting in a try to Marata). It will be interesting to see how Webby responds with the use of this practice by both SJ and/or TMM.

Totally agree on SJ’s nothing kicks to the corner - those little high balls for no one when he could have grubbered diagonally towards the goal posts for the repeat set

I don’t put this all on SJ as it would have been agreed and endorsed by Webby to play conservative and then grind out an error from the opposing team

Hoping a more expansive approach is taken in the next game when the old fellas are back

 

[Kav1]

It would take a long time to work out an odd combination like Charnze and Te Maire. It would take a while to work out TMM and CHT, but not as long as an odd ball selection like CNK and TMM.

Mostly because the CNK TMM combination does not know what it is going to do either (in a good way, CNK is not a trained classical pianist, he is a music by ear Jazz musician, chucked on a Steinway and told just jam some chords the band will follow).

When Webster threw those two together he knew what he was doing. It was the most radical spine move any Warriors coach has ever made in our history, hell....CNK ain't even a ball player...he just runs and runs....and TMM ain't a game organizer....neither of them are kickers, so what the bloody hell was Webster even thinking throwing those two against the Panthers?

TMM said in the post match that Webster had a plan, he made the plan very simple, and they trained it all week. TMM also said the plan had tricks in it from Websters Panther days.

You could see what Webster did when you watch enough replays.

Webster took the Panthers Kryptonite that the Eels invented (the Eels have been beating up on the Penrith Juggernaut using second phase non stop eyes up football with constant ball promotion to kill the cheating pushing sideways in the tackle by the Panthers gang tacklers).

Well actually the Eels did not invent that style, the Auckland Warriors did. You heard me right, the Auckland team, not the NZ Warriors. And even they did not invent it Per Se. The NZ Kiwis invented that style of play before the Warriors existed - then the Auckland Vulcans were renowned for it - then the Auckland Warriors....and eventually the Winfield cup caught on and called it Jungle ball.

Excuse me everyone for the history lesson but the evolution of second phase in Rugby league is a pet topic, because it was invented here and has for a very long time been acknowledged by British League callers and Australians alike as NZ Rugby league style, it is a uniquely Polynesian style of play first made famous by NZ Maori sides in both Rugby codes.

The Dragons adapted it and used it against the Warriors, which is why for a pretty shit club they hold our worst record against.

The same second phase game famously defeated the Storm when the Warriors employed it for endless upsets (getting to my point now) because second phase upsets structure.

Penrith hate it for the same reason the Storm hate it.

They are both structured highly coached sides, with strangling type methods of making a kill, which includes mirco management and skills training focused on cheating the rules around the play the ball.

In other words they are highly technical teams. Which means as we became polished and structured under Webster, our predictability became a double edged sword. It is like the new kid trying to beat the champ by copying the Champs boxing style in one pre fight camp.

Which is why people like a half like Metcalf, for variation, to threaten the boring ass strangle wall of your typical top four NRL teams.

Hell we have seen the likes of Melcalf before, the calls for his Xfactor are a stuck record around here....we put a 'Metcalf type' on steroids at the head of our campaigns for years....the young 'Shaun what is he going to do next Johnson'.

And here we are still title less.

Which is why I believe the answer is this:

To win the NRL the Warriors need to master and stick to the Australian Rugby league highly structured template, the same one the Kiwis have evolved into, shelving their historic roots in jungle ball, without completely abandoning them, park it down the list of priorities as a tool to be used come the time, not as a model for how to win the NRL.

And the Warriors need to ignore the fans of 2024 around that style being too readable.

I say the opposite, I say now that it is being challenged, get better at it.

And if that structured game plan is not working, then define what 'not working' means...break it down, because if we are playing ultra structure and being shut down on attack, while still achieving the other metrics of Webster ball (when we play Webster ball well, we are camped in the opponents end and they rarely see ball in ours) then and only then, should we should be talking about the problems with scoring, as an after fact, as a secondary lesser problem to our winning defensive template, that needs minor adjustments and variation.

In a game where the scoreline is 12 nil or less come the 80th minute we should be satisfied win or lose, we should appreciate the field position from Webster ball before demanding change. Rather than throw out the plan, lets imagine low scoring games where we only need to find 13+ to make top four and win titles. To me that is the secret. It always been the secret. The Warriors will win the NRL when they can emulate the Kiwis and play in 12 point games.

Try tell me that if we become a 12 nil or less defensive shut out side, that this is the wrong platform to aim for? Heck no! it ain't! Surely with the kind of territorial dominance we have been enjoying in games (especially when we lose) surely the Warriors have a platform to engineer a couple of tweaks to score more than twice in an NRL game.

This is why I say don't chuck the model away when we are losing. Only small adjustments needed.

Much better I say than trying to find more Xfactor and all these other meaningless un measurable, inconsistent ideas about how we should be playing.

Webby's coaching methods rely strongly on posession and position rather than completion rates. This may be the reasoning why he instructs SJ to kick to the corner on the 5th tackle (rather than try other means of getting further up the field). It appears to be boring to the casual observer but it is effective and fits the mould (ie structure). If we could only master the art of contesting the high ball without interference to the catcher, it would work well.

 

[Naynay]

Webby's coaching methods rely strongly on posession and position rather than completion rates. This may be the reasoning why he instructs SJ to kick to the corner on the 5th tackle (rather than try other means of getting further up the field). It appears to be boring to the casual observer but it is effective and fits the mould (ie structure). If we could only master the art of contesting the high ball without interference to the catcher, it would work well.

This is exactly what I was thinking on the mid field bombs to the corner.

Berry has a strong defensive game it makes sense when you are middle of the field and probably can’t offensively contest to just throw it as high as possible and let him sprint down and just slam the catcher as soon as he catches it.

We did it last year but also I feel like defence was much better so instead of them kicking it from their 30 or 40 they can kick us down to the corner and get a good chase, now cause they are starting us so far back we never get into the area where they feel like they can contest them

 

[Kav1]

Paternity right....same difference both suck lmao.

Twins?

 

[RobRoyMcCoy]

Having ruminated on the win and the players back next round, below is the team I think Webbie will pick. It is not what I would pick but I think this is what he will do given his track record.

1. CNK
2. DWZ
3. Berry
4. Pompey
5. Marcelo
6. TMM
7. SJ
8. AFB
9. Egan
10. Barnett
11. Ford
12. Capewell
13. Harris
14. Walker
15. Big Marata
16. Jazz
17. CHT

18. Bunty
19. Ale
20. Lussick
21. Taine Tuiapiki
22. Laban
23. MGT

 

[Tookey 2.0]

When did he say that he made an edict to play fullback only?

Shaun seems to have cut back on forcing goal line dropouts to almost zero whereas Te Maire made three in a row against the Dolphins (finally resulting in a try to Marata). It will be interesting to see how Webby responds with the use of this practice by both SJ and/or TMM.

Haha bro...SJ is leading the comp with 13 forced drop outs this year despite missing the last 2 games.
I can't find stats for everyone last year but he had 22, which would be in the top 5.

Also TMM had 2 of the forced drop outs and CHT the other one on the weekend

 

[Beastmode]

Having ruminated on the win and the players back next round, below is the team I think Webbie will pick. It is not what I would pick but I think this is what he will do given his track record.

1. CNK
2. DWZ
3. Berry
4. Pompey
5. Marcelo
6. TMM
7. SJ
8. AFB
9. Egan
10. Barnett
11. Ford
12. Capewell
13. Harris
14. Walker
15. Big Marata
16. Jazz
17. CHT

18. Bunty
19. Ale
20. Lussick
21. Taine Tuiapiki
22. Laban
23. MGT

The last time that 13 played together they got their arse beat by SG and looked like limp D’s in the Manly draw… hoping that one month off fixes that mojo and it’s 3rd time lucky because nothing less than a W against the Cows will do for me…

 

[MrFrankWhite]

The last time that 13 played together they got their arse beat by SG and looked like limp D’s in the Manly draw… hoping that one month off fixes that mojo and it’s 3rd time lucky because nothing less than a W against the Cows will do for me…

This will be a test of both Webby and the players.

 

[Wrighty]

The last time that 13 played together they got their arse beat by SG and looked like limp D’s in the Manly draw… hoping that one month off fixes that mojo and it’s 3rd time lucky because nothing less than a W against the Cows will do for me…

This post really caught my attention so I looked up the match
Roger was at centre against St George rather than Pompey

We also had a lame bench against St George
The poster above has named a bench of
14 Walker
15 Jazz
16 Marata
17 CHT

That day against St George our bench was appalling with only two forwards

14 Tom Ale
15 Laban
16 Pompey
17 Roache