Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Garry Saloon]

Excellent. At last a sensible interpretation.
About 35 years ago a close friend who is partner in a big law firm told me they were on the lookout for a lawyer to specialise in Treaty claims. They already had commercial lawyers, litigators, family lawyers, patent specialists etc. He said they may have to lure an intermediate lawyer with the offer of a partnership and I asked why this area of law was so important to them. Simple, because he could see the grievance industry taking off. He said it had huge growth potential for generating fees and the Govt usually paid the claimants costs.

Grievance is demanding the other party to an agreement honour it? No. Grievance is bitching and crying when you're asked to honour an agreement.

 

[Garry Saloon]

The Treaty has been very lucrative for lawyers, they have a vested interested.
Maori and the Treaty are always going to be part of any related conversation.
I have had some very interesting conversations with Iwi leaders around claims stemming from the Treaty.

And property is lucrative and divorce is lucrative and employment disputes are lucrative. Being a lawyer is lucrative. It's only when the client is brown that people murmur darkly about how lucrative things are. Straight racism.

 

[Garry Saloon]

Did he mention that treaty grievances exist because of one party not upholding their part of the agreement?

Or that the total amount of settlements EVER is less than what the country spends on the pension in three months?

For people so forthright on the topic you really dont seem to have an understanding it

The settlements are only ever a small fraction of what was taken.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

The settlements are only ever a small fraction of what was taken.

Do Maori reimburse each other over the Maori musket wars? Why not? Do we chose what we’re offended at? Is Europe, which had been at constant war until more recently than the treaty, still a divided continent demanding reimbursement and complaining about injustices?

Man, 180 years later is a long time to hold a grudge. Maori can only move on when they want to move on and until then the grudges do more harm than good.

I do actually support iwi being compensated and they have been but not individuals. I don’t support my mother not entitled to free medicine for a chronic condition because of a lack of injustice to her great, great, great, great grandparent...

 

[dean]

And property is lucrative and divorce is lucrative and employment disputes are lucrative. Being a lawyer is lucrative. It's only when the client is brown that people murmur darkly about how lucrative things are. Straight racism.

If making money from generating fees is now racism, what next? You need to find racism somewhere or you are not content.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

And property is lucrative and divorce is lucrative and employment disputes are lucrative. Being a lawyer is lucrative. It's only when the client is brown that people murmur darkly about how lucrative things are. Straight racism.

Out of interest, who do you define as the ‘people’ that murmur darkly? There’s always going to be racism (directed in multiple directions) out there in society, but how deep you think this extends in society these days?

 

[dean]

The settlements are only ever a small fraction of what was taken.

Heres the thing. Sometimes Maori had land taken, sometimes they sold it, sometimes it was sold by those not allowed to. Quite messy.
Undeveloped land here in those days was worth little or nothing without some form of access and settlement of Europeans to provide trade and opportunity for all. Maori saw this and were keen traders especially providing produce for said settlements. In the very early days these were onshore whaling stations.
Once Maori got tools and seeds to grow vegetables ( particularly potatoes ) other than kumara from Europeans they became very able gardeners and traded for stuff they wanted, stuff made from metal like muskets, nails and tools. Nails and tools enabled them to build better structures easier.
Cook was impressed by Maori. Some Maori were taken back to England to visit the Queen and Sydney was also a visiting place for Maori.
If I remember rightly Hongi Hika visited England around 1800. He was very keen on trading with Europeans and got his hands on muskets before others and you know what happened.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Heres the thing. Sometimes Maori had land taken, sometimes they sold it, sometimes it was sold by those not allowed to. Quite messy.

And sometimes Maori were allied with the crown and joined forces to take land from Maori… sometimes setters were Maori aligned. Very messy.

 

[juju]

Heres the thing. Sometimes Maori had land taken, sometimes they sold it, sometimes it was sold by those not allowed to. Quite messy.
Undeveloped land here in those days was worth little or nothing without some form of access and settlement of Europeans to provide trade and opportunity for all. Maori saw this and were keen traders especially providing produce for said settlements. In the very early days these were onshore whaling stations.
Once Maori got tools and seeds to grow vegetables ( particularly potatoes ) other than kumara from Europeans they became very able gardeners and traded for stuff they wanted, stuff made from metal like muskets, nails and tools. Nails and tools enabled them to build better structures easier.
Cook was impressed by Maori. Some Maori were taken back to England to visit the Queen and Sydney was also a visiting place for Maori.
If I remember rightly Hongi Hika visited England around 1800. He was very keen on trading with Europeans and got his hands on muskets before others and you know what happened.

Is that you David Seymour?

Here's the thing. A treaty was signed and breached. End of.

Until the grievances are sorted and the resulting social inequity addressed

A simple understanding on the topic would end the maori bashing that seems to run so deep in a certain generation.

 

[dean]

Is that you David Seymour?

Here's the thing. A treaty was signed and breached. End of.

Until the grievances are sorted and the resulting social inequity addressed

A simple understanding on the topic would end the maori bashing that seems to run so deep in a certain generation.

David here.
Give me your list of breaches.

 

[marv.]

for what it’s worth, i don’t agree with seymour wanting to redefine it, and would never back it.

some of you guys may not realize it, but for lack of a better term, your ‘echo chamber’ has got you all fizzed up about something the prime minister keeps saying WILL NOT GO AHEAD.

Live: No way Treaty Principle Bill will get National's support - Luxon

National and New Zealand First have only committed to supporting at first reading, through to select committee.

www.rnz.co.nz

what’s the most frightening part is if you think back only a few years, jacinda ardern introduced vaccine mandates, she was clear at the time that they were temporary.

then came all those eggs, talking about erosion of democracy, human rights breaches, stripping of freedoms, WEF, agenda2030 we’ll all be slaves living 15 minute jail cities etc.

and then when mandates ended just as she said they would, and life’s slowly going back to normal all those mongols disappeared back into obscurity.

the EXACT same shit is happening here. some of these people are even using the exact same terms!

it’s quite remarkable how hard people will go into bat for something and then just forget it ever happened when nothing comes of it.

what will be the thing to jump on and be outraged about when this doesn’t pass the first reading?

 

[Garry Saloon]

Heres the thing. Sometimes Maori had land taken, sometimes they sold it, sometimes it was sold by those not allowed to. Quite messy.
Undeveloped land here in those days was worth little or nothing without some form of access and settlement of Europeans to provide trade and opportunity for all. Maori saw this and were keen traders especially providing produce for said settlements. In the very early days these were onshore whaling stations.
Once Maori got tools and seeds to grow vegetables ( particularly potatoes ) other than kumara from Europeans they became very able gardeners and traded for stuff they wanted, stuff made from metal like muskets, nails and tools. Nails and tools enabled them to build better structures easier.
Cook was impressed by Maori. Some Maori were taken back to England to visit the Queen and Sydney was also a visiting place for Maori.
If I remember rightly Hongi Hika visited England around 1800. He was very keen on trading with Europeans and got his hands on muskets before others and you know what happened.

What's your point

 

[Garry Saloon]

And sometimes Maori were allied with the crown and joined forces to take land from Maori… sometimes setters were Maori aligned. Very messy.

What. Is. Your. Point.

 

[juju]

for what it’s worth, i don’t agree with seymour wanting to redefine it, and would never back it.

some of you guys may not realize it, but for lack of a better term, your ‘echo chamber’ has got you all fizzed up about something the prime minister keeps saying WILL NOT GO AHEAD.

Live: No way Treaty Principle Bill will get National's support - Luxon

National and New Zealand First have only committed to supporting at first reading, through to select committee.

www.rnz.co.nz

what’s the most frightening part is if you think back only a few years, jacinda ardern introduced vaccine mandates, she was clear at the time that they were temporary.

then came all those eggs, talking about erosion of democracy, human rights breaches, stripping of freedoms, WEF, agenda2030 we’ll all be slaves living 15 minute jail cities etc.

and then when mandates ended just as she said they would, and life’s slowly going back to normal all those mongols disappeared back into obscurity.

the EXACT same shit is happening here. some of these people are even using the exact same terms!

it’s quite remarkable how hard people will go into bat for something and then just forget it ever happened when nothing comes of it.

what will be the thing to jump on and be outraged about when this doesn’t pass the first reading?

The Maori Protest movement has been around for generations Marv and really isn't going anywhere.

The echo chamber comment is very ironic given this thread.
And very ironic how hard you go into bat for every right wing talking point given how often you feel the need to tell us all "you hate them all"

 

[Garry Saloon]

If making money from generating fees is now racism, what next? You need to find racism somewhere or you are not content.

Be honest. Your clear implication was that there is some sort of scammy treaty gravy train driven by lawyers wanting $

 

[juju]

What. Is. Your. Point.

I wonder if any of our forum experts could tell us
How many maori signed the english translation
&
How many maori signed the reo translation

If you don't have an awareness of that topic you shouldn't be commenting

 

[Garry Saloon]

Do Maori reimburse each other over the Maori musket wars? Why not? Do we chose what we’re offended at? Is Europe, which had been at constant war until more recently than the treaty, still a divided continent demanding reimbursement and complaining about injustices?

Man, 180 years later is a long time to hold a grudge. Maori can only move on when they want to move on and until then the grudges do more harm than good.

I do actually support iwi being compensated and they have been but not individuals. I don’t support my mother not entitled to free medicine for a chronic condition because of a lack of injustice to her great, great, great, great grandparent...

What point are you trying to make? It's not like there was a treaty signed then 180 years later they were like, hang on there's some money to be made here. The Treaty was breached and is still being breached and māori have fought for justice the whole way through.

 

[marv.]

The Maori Protest movement has been around for generations Marv and really isn't going anywhere.

The echo chamber comment is very ironic given this thread.
And very ironic how hard you go into bat for every right wing talking point given how often you feel the need to tell us all "you hate them all"

the protest movement is not what i’m talking about.
nor are maori rights, or the treaty.
you know that.

the hate of the current government, stripping maori of rights and freedoms and wanting maori dead as waititi or whoever it was put it is what i’m talking about.

the fact that opposition parties currently offer so little, that piling on a non event is really all they can do.
greens are in absolute disarray,
labour all pretending they still suppprt hipkins,
TPM doing their best to make the world seem as racist as possible.
seymour is a little turd, we know that, but as part of coalition agreement he gets to have his little thing even though he’s been told it goes no further.

you guys are talking about it and fighting it as though you’re trying to claw back what’s just been taken as though it’s actually happened. when the prime minister keeps saying it will not.

there’s no rational conversation around it at all.
IF it were to be passed, or even if the prime minister were to be open to the possibility of it even being allowed to be entertained, then i think your arguements may be worthwhile, even important.

however, if it’s absolutely 100% not going ahead, then why is it any more of an issue now than it was while the last government were in power? or the government before that?

and what do you think will be the conversation after it doesn’t pass the first reading and is dead in the water?

 

[juju]

the protest movement is not what talking about.
nor are maori rights, or the treaty.
you know that.

the hate of the current government, stripping maori of rights and freedoms and wanting maori dead as waititi or whoever it was put it is what i’m talking about.

the fact that opposition parties currently offer so little, that piling on a non event is really all they can do.
greens are in absolute disarray,
labour all pretending they still suppprt hipkins,
TPM doing their best to make the world seem as racist as possible.
seymour is a little turd, we know that, but as part of coalition agreement he gets to have his little thing even though he’s been told it goes no further.

you guys are talking about it and fighting it as though you’re trying to claw back what’s just been taken as though it’s actually happened. when the prime minister keeps saying it will not.

there’s no rational conversation around it at all.
IF it were to be passed, or even if the prime minister were to be open to the possibility of it even being allowed to be entertained, then i think your arguements may be worthwhile, even important.

however, if it’s absolutely 100% not going ahead, then why is it any more of an issue now than it was while the last government were in power? or the government before that?

and what do you think will be the conversation after it doesn’t pass the first reading and is dead in the water?

Theres a lot more irrational chat in this very thread with all the commenting while exhibiting a pretty shocking understanding of any detail of the treaty.
For how forthright the views are it's pretty cringe.

Naturally people are not going to trust a government that allow lobby groups to literally write government policy for them

You are aware of what Hobson's Pledge is? and how antagonistic that is to Maoridom?

 

[MaybeTop8]

Is that you David Seymour?

Here's the thing. A treaty was signed and breached. End of.

Until the grievances are sorted and the resulting social inequity addressed

A simple understanding on the topic would end the maori bashing that seems to run so deep in a certain generation.

Plenty of representation in these pages of the said generation