Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

MrFrankWhite said:
I'll give MaybeTop8 some room here. Education misspending is atrocious across all western nations. While I'm sure you back Luxon and I'm sure Labors results are shit, but I can bet this will do fuck all or make it worse.
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Another manufactured crisis on the road to privatisation - to quote the wire - "juking the stats" - https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/35...ifting-goalposts-maths-assessment-labour-says

And yes, I know it's a Labour quote, but it's the m.o. of a hard right neoliberal coalition with a privatisation agenda.
 

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MaybeTop8 said:
Another manufactured crisis on the road to privatisation - to quote the wire - "juking the stats" - https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/35...ifting-goalposts-maths-assessment-labour-says

And yes, I know it's a Labour quote, but it's the m.o. of a hard right neoliberal coalition with a privatisation agenda.
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Labour seems to be inferring that Luxon's agenda is to criticise children and teachers, e.g.'s
  • “I think the Government should use data and information that’s accurate. I think assessing kids against a curriculum that they have not been taught isn’t a fair reflection of what kids are capable of." - Hipkins
  • "Effectively you’re measuring kids against something that they’ve never, ever been taught." - Tinetti
It's kinda beside the point. NZ's educational performance has been sliding down the Pisa rankings for years. We have to do something about stopping that trend
 
MaybeTop8 said:
Another manufactured crisis on the road to privatisation - to quote the wire - "juking the stats" - https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/35...ifting-goalposts-maths-assessment-labour-says

And yes, I know it's a Labour quote, but it's the m.o. of a hard right neoliberal coalition with a privatisation agenda.
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1 - We’ve been falling down the Pisa standings for years. Know facts.
2 - (anecdotally) children come from overseas and are shocked at how low our teaching levels are
3 - the current system doesn’t want to test so cannot know where and when kids need help. Dumb.
4 - teachers have an overloaded curriculum with multiple priorities decreasing time for core areas
5 - anecdotally we didn’t have a clue if our own children were ahead or behind (because the teachers didn’t really know either). We did private tuition for 2/3 of our kids once we realised they were really struggling.
6 - our curriculum is crap with no expectations - eg my kids learn treaty of Waitangi every single year for social studies rather than a broad curriculum because there is no continuity. Dumb.

Testing where kids are at; extra support for those falling behind; mandating 1 hour a day on the core subjects; setting expectations by year level, etc are all basic logical stuff to help kids (that the teacher unions want to avoid).

What’s any of this got to do with privatisation? Do you always fall back on your conspiracy theories or actually evaluate the issues?
 
wizard of Tauranga said:
1 - We’ve been falling down the Pisa standings for years. Know facts.
2 - (anecdotally) children come from overseas and are shocked at how low our teaching levels are
3 - the current system doesn’t want to test so cannot know where and when kids need help. Dumb.
4 - teachers have an overloaded curriculum with multiple priorities decreasing time for core areas
5 - anecdotally we didn’t have a clue if our own children were ahead or behind (because the teachers didn’t really know either). We did private tuition for 2/3 of our kids once we realised they were really struggling.
6 - our curriculum is crap with no expectations - eg my kids learn treaty of Waitangi every single year for social studies rather than a broad curriculum because there is no continuity. Dumb.

Testing where kids are at; extra support for those falling behind; mandating 1 hour a day on the core subjects; setting expectations by year level, etc are all basic logical stuff to help kids (that the teacher unions want to avoid).

What’s any of this got to do with privatisation? Do you always fall back on your conspiracy theories or actually evaluate the issues?
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It's not a conspiracy Wiz, well, it's an open one. This is what they do. Weren't you around in New Zealand for the last 45 years? Neoliberalist ideology

1722924949102.webp
 
MaybeTop8 said:
It's not a conspiracy Wiz, well, it's an open one. This is what they do. Weren't you around in New Zealand for the last 45 years? Neoliberalist ideology

View attachment 8481
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Maybe there is an agenda to sell stuff, maybe there isn’t.

But this is about kids and stopping them failing at school which is a HUGE and real problem.

THIS issue is nothing to do with privatisation. Are they gonna sell all our schools???
 
wizard of Tauranga said:
Maybe there is an agenda to sell stuff, maybe there isn’t.

But this is about kids and stopping them failing at school which is a HUGE and real problem.

THIS issue is nothing to do with privatisation. Are they gonna sell all our schools???
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Charter schools anyone? It's happening. Now.

The article also points out
"It follows Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Education Minister Erica Stanford’s selling their new maths policy at the National Party conference over the weekend, claiming just 22% of Year 8 students were at the expected standard for maths.

However, Aotearoa Educators Collective on Monday raised concerns the 22% figure was not comparing apples with apples because it was benchmarked against a new curriculum which was not yet being taught to Year 8 children."

In other words, manufacturing a crisis. FFS, this is NATIONAL AND ACT. IT'S WHAT THEY DO. THEIR RICH BACKERS - IT'S WHAT THEY DO. WEALTH EXTRACTION. IT'S WHAT THEY DO. CONSERVATIVE AUTHORITARIANISM. IT'S WHAT THEY DO. ATLAS. IT'S WHAT THEY DO.
 
MaybeTop8 said:
Charter schools anyone? It's happening. Now.

The article also points out
"It follows Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Education Minister Erica Stanford’s selling their new maths policy at the National Party conference over the weekend, claiming just 22% of Year 8 students were at the expected standard for maths.

However, Aotearoa Educators Collective on Monday raised concerns the 22% figure was not comparing apples with apples because it was benchmarked against a new curriculum which was not yet being taught to Year 8 children."

In other words, manufacturing a crisis. FFS, this is NATIONAL AND ACT. IT'S WHAT THEY DO. THEIR RICH BACKERS - IT'S WHAT THEY DO. WEALTH EXTRACTION. IT'S WHAT THEY DO. CONSERVATIVE AUTHORITARIANISM. IT'S WHAT THEY DO. ATLAS. IT'S WHAT THEY DO.
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Keep spouting Labour propaganda mate. Is Pisa a manufactured crisis as well? Your either a sucker believing Labour misinformation or really don’t know what your talking about…

‘New Zealand has recorded its worst ever results in the OECD's Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests of reading, maths and science amid an unprecedented global decline in performance.

This country's 15-year-olds' average scores in the PISA dropped a disastrous 15 points in maths to 479 points, their science and reading scores fell just 4-5 points to 504 and 501 points respectively, and the gap between rich and poor students grew.

The declines continued a long-term trend of falling scores dating back to at least 2009 and happened despite New Zealand's average results being skewed upward by about 10 points due to a low participation rate in the assessments held in term three 2022.’

New Zealand's results showed a decrease in high performers and an increase in low performers over the past 20 years in all three subjects.

Our 2022 results for maths are down a whopping 15 points since 2018. That is equivalent to about six months of schooling lost in just four years. Since testing began in 2003, we have fallen by 44 points – equivalent to about one-and-a-half years of schooling.


www.rnz.co.nz

NZ records worst ever PISA international test results, amid global decline

New Zealand was not alone, with overall average scores for maths, reading and science dropping in the 81 countries and economies participating in the tests.
www.rnz.co.nz www.rnz.co.nz
 
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wizard of Tauranga said:
2 - (anecdotally) children come from overseas and are shocked at how low our teaching levels are
3 - the current system doesn’t want to test so cannot know where and when kids need help. Dumb.
4 - teachers have an overloaded curriculum with multiple priorities decreasing time for core areas
5 - anecdotally we didn’t have a clue if our own children were ahead or behind (because the teachers didn’t really know either). We did private tuition for 2/3 of our kids once we realised they were really struggling.
6 - our curriculum is crap with no expectations - eg my kids learn treaty of Waitangi every single year for social studies rather than a broad curriculum because there is no continuity. Dumb.

Testing where kids are at; extra support for those falling behind; mandating 1 hour a day on the core subjects; setting expectations by year level, etc are all basic logical stuff to help kids (that the teacher unions want to avoid).

What’s any of this got to do with privatisation? Do you always fall back on your conspiracy theories or actually evaluate the issues?
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i also read the other day that between 11-12 percent of kiwis receive or are on a benefit?!

probably a known thing but fuck that shocked me.i don’t know why but i’d have though far less?

i’d be interested for good or for bad, to see what that was a generation ago and what we’ve got to look forward to in a generations time.
 
marv. said:
i also read the other day that between 11-12 percent of kiwis receive or are on a benefit?!

probably a known thing but fuck that shocked me.i don’t know why but i’d have though far less?

i’d be interested for good or for bad, to see what that was a generation ago and what we’ve got to look forward to in a generations time.
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A citation might be good on that one. And there are many types of benefits btw.
 
wizard of Tauranga said:
extra support for those falling behind;….. (that the teacher unions want to avoid).
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@wizard of Tauranga while I’ve cut only a few phrases from your well thought out post the comment re the Union is misinformation.

The Union if I understand them correctly are not against change but are arguing that they can’t do what is required of them if they’re under resourced.

If you are teaching a class of 30+ how do you have the time to spend time on those who are struggling to pick things up.

I would be interested to know whether there is any correlation between increasing class sizes and falling learning rates
 
Bay39er said:
@wizard of Tauranga while I’ve cut only a few phrases from your well thought out post the comment re the Union is misinformation.

The Union if I understand them correctly are not against change but are arguing that they can’t do what is required of them if they’re under resourced.

If you are teaching a class of 30+ how do you have the time to spend time on those who are struggling to pick things up.

I would be interested to know whether there is any correlation between increasing class sizes and falling learning rates
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Yeah Wiz what teacher in the country actually wants kids to fall behind? Not buying what you're selling us Vladimir
 
Bay39er said:
@wizard of Tauranga while I’ve cut only a few phrases from your well thought out post the comment re the Union is misinformation.

The Union if I understand them correctly are not against change but are arguing that they can’t do what is required of them if they’re under resourced.

If you are teaching a class of 30+ how do you have the time to spend time on those who are struggling to pick things up.

I would be interested to know whether there is any correlation between increasing class sizes and falling learning rates
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I believe our school system has been led by academics into trying failed teaching strategies. Education is dominated by educational theorists over results driven outcomes. Eg open plan classrooms.

The teacher unions I regard as seperate from teachers. They have actively embraced the academics. They have some fundamentally beliefs in pushing against anything that compares children and hence compared teachers (eg national standards). All teachers are equal, there are no bad teachers. I say this from my experience on a school board of trustees.

Many teachers are sick of the academics and the strategies they are forced to teach. The unions need to do what’s best for kids rather than what’s best for teachers.

I agree on class sizes. My wife is currently teaching new entrant at primary school. Facts are 20% of children will have a learning issue and need extra support. But the system currently barely even identifies them and barely has the capacity to help them. That’s another issue that needs huge resourcing.
 
Worried2Death said:
Yeah Wiz what teacher in the country actually wants kids to fall behind? Not buying what you're selling us Vladimir
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Mate, that’s like a 2010 Warriors junior saying he’s doesn’t have to do any practice like all the Aussie teams do because he was a superstar at school and never practised…

Sometimes you need to have a vision based on best practice and put all the pieces into place rather than being a poor overworked teacher and saying you can’t do it any differently!

No teacher wants a child to fall behind but with different teaching tools you could get different outcomes…
 
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Here are NZ's PISA test results, over time. With an globally competitive employment market, NZ children need better educational outcomes.

Look at the Maths graph. NZ used to be significantly outperforming the OECD average. After 2010 we decline, and by 2012 we are the same as the rest of the OECD. Not great.

The trend for all three areas is declining, which is bad in itself. What is worse is that the gap between NZ and the OECD is getting smaller (or disappearing, for Maths).

This isn't a left vs right problem. This is a crisis that needs an enduring solution that outlasts whoever is in government

1722977650721.webp

For comparison, here is Hong Kong (which has similar results to Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea etc):
1722977939711.webp
 

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Bay39er said:
@wizard of Tauranga while I’ve cut only a few phrases from your well thought out post the comment re the Union is misinformation.

The Union if I understand them correctly are not against change but are arguing that they can’t do what is required of them if they’re under resourced.

If you are teaching a class of 30+ how do you have the time to spend time on those who are struggling to pick things up.

I would be interested to know whether there is any correlation between increasing class sizes and falling learning rates
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in my 40+ years of observing NZ and Aus educational models, the Unions are either incompetent or impotent..
 
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