Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[MrFrankWhite]

I think the keyword here is standardisation, right?

Alot easier to say a chicken is worth $10, than say it's worth 20 bananas OR 15 carrots OR 5 old school Cadbury Chocolate bars.

Further to that, fiats value is more controllable. Goods are subject to rareity (seasonal, supply etc) and quality degredation (expiry dates).

I like Bitcoin and all that, but all it is is basically a digital gold rush. Whoever gets in first, profits the most; given a sustained/increased demand.

Yeah bingo. A barter based economy would only work with a tiny number of participants. Say an island with 100 families. Any larger and it becomes so inefficient it would likely collapse.

 

[dean]

Yeah bingo. A barter based economy would only work with a tiny number of participants. Say an island with 100 families. Any larger and it becomes so inefficient it would likely collapse.

Most people would have nothing to barter with.
I don't come across many people that grow their own vegetables. More that fish and a few that hunt.
My mates that don't hunt or fish would have no idea how to butcher an animal or fillet a fish , never mind sharpening a knife. Therefore, they wouldn't have much to trade for my snapper.
Sadly, most fall into that category. Men generally are not hunters and gatherers anymore, just financial providers.

 

[miket12]

Man the Greens are a confusing lot..... the last two elections, they campaigned on planting trees on over 1.3 million hectares..... now that the government is doing that, they don't like the idea. Planting trees isn't the only answer but should be part of the solution.

Part of the problem the planet has is that too many groups have decided that theirs is the only way to effect change. Surely the end result is what matters.... not playing political games on how that is achieved.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Most people would have nothing to barter with.
I don't come across many people that grow their own vegetables. More that fish and a few that hunt.
My mates that don't hunt or fish would have no idea how to butcher an animal or fillet a fish , never mind sharpening a knife. Therefore, they wouldn't have much to trade for my snapper.
Sadly, most fall into that category. Men generally are not hunters and gatherers anymore, just financial providers.

We are taking hypotheticals. But we do exist in capitalism, how many of your friends are capitalists?

 

[dean]

We are taking hypotheticals. But we do exist in capitalism, how many of your friends are capitalists?

I realise that, just talking about needs and in a simplified world, what would have value and that would be food.
All my friends are proud capitalists, like me.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

All my friends are proud capitalists, like me.

Capitalists are people who own and leverage capital. They dont earn a wage from working, and they certainly dont work for someone else.

 

[juju]

Capitalists are people who own and leverage capital. They dont earn a wage from working, and they certainly dont work for someone else.

with the motive of profit. Which makes money crucial and central to the theory of capitalism & fails without.

"Capitalism isn’t about money"

 

[MrFrankWhite]

with the motive of profit. Which makes money crucial and central to the theory of capitalism & fails without.

"Capitalism isn’t about money"

Private capital is central to theory of capitalism. Does it fail without money? Mostly likely, but it also fails without people. Which is capital and not money.

If your argument held true, then socialism being the antonym of capitalism, would NOT feature money. But alas it does. Because the fundamental tenets of the theories is the ownership of the means of production.

This is all high school level stuff.

FFS you could run an economy on slaves being the capital if you want.

 

[Tragic]

Money is just currency but currency doesn't have to be money.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Private capital is central to theory of capitalism. Does it fail without money? Mostly likely, but it also fails without people. Which is capital and not money.

If your argument held true, then socialism being the antonym of capitalism, would NOT feature money. But alas it does. Because the fundamental tenets of the theories is the ownership of the means of production.

This is all high school level stuff.

FFS you could run an economy on slaves being the capital of you want.

Capitalism works so well because even though you’re aiming for profit, your competition is ensuring the profit cannot be excessive (in a perfect market) as businesses compete for customers.

I think a return on investment and risk is a better term than profit.

Similarly with labour, employees have the ability to move employer to get a higher wage or more skilled role meaning wages move towards the maximum the sector can pay (again in a perfect market).

The employees that spend forever with one employer bitching about what a bad boss they have and how they are getting screwed only have themselves to blame. Move to a better employer, retrain or start your own business rather than blaming capitalism.

 

[Worried2Death]

Private capital is central to theory of capitalism. Does it fail without money? Mostly likely, but it also fails without people. Which is capital and not money.

If your argument held true, then socialism being the antonym of capitalism, would NOT feature money. But alas it does. Because the fundamental tenets of the theories is the ownership of the means of production.

This is all high school level stuff.

FFS you could run an economy on slaves being the capital if you want.

Incidentally, ever read Marx's Das Capital Frank?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Incidentally, ever read Marx's Das Capital Frank?

Read and discussed excerpts but not the original fully. High school level / undergrad is where I top out. I kind of wish someone dropped a masters level knowledge bomb in here.

 

[Rick O’Shay]

Read and discussed excerpts but not the original fully. High school level / undergrad is where I top out. I kind of wish someone dropped a masters level knowledge bomb in here.

Poor old Karl would turn in his grave today with the state of the class struggle.

Everything is now about Identity.

The president of the Boilermakers union in the early 70's, before they were deregistered, would put a copy of it on the table before every union meeting and cherry pick excerpts to suit the narrative of the day, which generally ended with "Up went the shout, of out Brothers out"

 

[PullingTeets]

Incidentally, ever read Marx's Das Capital Frank?

If it's anything like 120 days of Sodom that you mentioned in the Book thread, the that's a big fucking no from me dawg.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Yeo this industry needs fixing. But they should be building up not out, they aren't investing in infrastructure to support greenfield development and to be fair would need to invest for past greenfield development first as that wasn't done right.
This should be obvious to anyone, don't know why luxon and co can't see it.

The leaky buildings scandal has cost this country 50 billion and rising, and untold misery. Deregulation driven by right wing neoliberal ideology was the cause. The market didn't provide, it ripped the public off and stole all the wealth. Now this corrupt mob are doing it all over again

 

[Worried2Death]

If it's anything like 120 days of Sodom that you mentioned in the Book thread, the that's a big fucking no from me dawg.

It does have a similar ending when Stalin takes over. Ever read the sequal, The Gulag Archipeligo? Laugh a minute.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Capitalism works so well because even though you’re aiming for profit, your competition is ensuring the profit cannot be excessive (in a perfect market) as businesses compete for customers.

I think a return on investment and risk is a better term than profit.

Similarly with labour, employees have the ability to move employer to get a higher wage or more skilled role meaning wages move towards the maximum the sector can pay (again in a perfect market).

The employees that spend forever with one employer bitching about what a bad boss they have and how they are getting screwed only have themselves to blame. Move to a better employer, retrain or start your own business rather than blaming capitalism.

This reads like cheap generated a.i.

 

[Worried2Death]

I kind of wish someone dropped a masters level knowledge bomb in here.

Yeah it would be good if we had someone here who actually knows what they're talking about.

Wait a minute, I thought all academics were brainwashed liberals?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Poor old Karl would turn in his grave today with the state of the class struggle.

Everything is now about Identity.

The president of the Boilermakers union in the early 70's, before they were deregistered, would put a copy of it on the table before every union meeting and cherry pick excerpts to suit the narrative of the day, which generally ended with "Up went the shout, of out Brothers out"

The bourgeoisie thinking they are the workng class is common theme today as well.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

This reads like cheap generated a.i.

Maybe I’m really warriorbot in disguise…

I will take that as a compliment that my writing is clear, concise and technically accurate