Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[kos]

This is someone on $23 per hour. They go in for an extra half day on a Saturday. $92. Less tax = $61. Car costs, parking, childcare costs, student loan repayments, etc. End up with maybe enough to buy KFC on the way home.

The view is you end up with more in your hand in the dole per hour after work expenses.

This was the sort of conversations I have had with people in minimum wage jobs over the years

People still doing overtime on 23 an hour!
Nz a true low wage economy.

Surely it’s more now

 

[MaybeTop8]

People still doing overtime on 23 an hour!
Nz a true low wage economy.

Surely it’s more now

If it wasn't for the last government it would be a lot less. Thanks to this mob it will be stuck at very low levels now, with low wage employment prospects extremely shaky as the ability to fire someone without good cause becomes extremely easy.

Neoliberal economics demands a certain level of unemployment to keep wages artificially low. Recessions are manufactured, as this one is. Then the right and the far right, who implement these policies, will attack those same unemployed whom they engineered into being unemployed in the first place.

Corrupt, no care for any of our citizens apart from the wealthy and powerful. That's neoliberalism. That's National. That's Act.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

If it wasn't for the last government it would be a lot less. Thanks to this mob it will be stuck at very low levels now, with low wage employment prospects extremely shaky as the ability to fire someone without good cause becomes extremely easy.

Neoliberal economics demands a certain level of unemployment to keep wages artificially low. Recessions are manufactured, as this one is. Then the right and the far right, who implement these policies, will attack those same unemployed whom they engineered into being unemployed in the first place.

Corrupt, no care for any of our citizens apart from the wealthy and powerful. That's neoliberalism. That's National. That's Act.

So just to be clear, you are suggesting that the current government implemented the policies that have created the current recession?

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

If it wasn't for the last government it would be a lot less. Thanks to this mob it will be stuck at very low levels now, with low wage employment prospects extremely shaky as the ability to fire someone without good cause becomes extremely easy.

Neoliberal economics demands a certain level of unemployment to keep wages artificially low. Recessions are manufactured, as this one is. Then the right and the far right, who implement these policies, will attack those same unemployed whom they engineered into being unemployed in the first place.

Corrupt, no care for any of our citizens apart from the wealthy and powerful. That's neoliberalism. That's National. That's Act.

1 - the reserve bank engineers recessions in part in response to bad govt policies. The reserve bank had us in recession most of last year under Labour and will be most of next year under National. It’s an economic response somewhat independent of govt.

2 - minimum wages are totally irrelevant. What is important is spending power with discretionary cash. NZ has a high worldwide minimum wage but a relatively higher cost of living. Turkey just announced a doubling of their minimum wage. They are a basket case with inflation completely out of control and it’s not who we want to copy.

Real wealth is created by increased productivity and sustainable growth in wages greater than GDP growth.

3 - anyone with good work ethic doesn’t need to worry about unemployment levels and trial periods. The argument is those drive people to get a better work ethic! I could build an argument based on stats that NZ has to many people that don’t grow GDP greater than their pay increases. And it’s not working harder or long hours but smarter and more effectively.

 

[MaybeTop8]

So just to be clear, you are suggesting that the current government implemented the policies that have created the current recession?

Don't have a clue where you got that from.

It is a manufactured recession though, mostly through the reserve bank.

 

[MaybeTop8]

1 - the reserve bank engineers recessions in part in response to bad govt policies. The reserve bank had us in recession most of last year under Labour and will be most of next year under National. It’s an economic response somewhat independent of govt.

2 - minimum wages are totally irrelevant. What is important is spending power with discretionary cash. NZ has a high worldwide minimum wage but a relatively higher cost of living. Turkey just announced a doubling of their minimum wage. They are a basket case with inflation completely out of control and it’s not who we want to copy.

Real wealth is created by increased productivity and sustainable growth in wages greater than GDP growth.

3 - anyone with good work ethic doesn’t need to worry about unemployment levels and trial periods. The argument is those drive people to get a better work ethic! I could build an argument based on stats that NZ has to many people that don’t grow GDP greater than their pay increases. And it’s not working harder or long hours but smarter and more effectively.

Points 2 and 3 wiz - you come at things from a very strange and somewhat privileged position I think.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Points 2 and 3 wiz - you come at things from a very strange and somewhat privileged position I think.

Would you rather earn $1000 pw but it costs $1100 for housing, fruit and veges or earn $400pw and have your basics cost $200?

They are all just numbers. What’s important is value and purchasing power.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Would you rather earn $1000 pw but it costs $1100 for housing, fruit and veges or earn $400pw and have your basics cost $200?

They are all just numbers. What’s important is value and purchasing power.

No one can afford houses here mate apart from the true wealthy.

Taking out a 30 year mortgage for 800000 and having to pay back the best part of 3 million on some run down mouldy house is appalling and we should all be horrified.

By your own second sentence neoliberalism is a failure. Except, it's only purpose is to concentrate wealth upwards, so by that measure it's a success.

 

[John Nick]

Would you rather earn $1000 pw but it costs $1100 for housing, fruit and veges or earn $400pw and have your basics cost $200?

They are all just numbers. What’s important is value and purchasing power.

The problem with this is if everyone had a disposable income of 50% of their earnings prices of every single thing would be through the roof

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Don't have a clue where you got that from.

It is a manufactured recession though, mostly through the reserve bank.

Go back and read your post.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Go back and read your post.

Actually, you could do that. Not sure what you're on about, and tbh meh.

 

[Inruin]

If it wasn't for the last government it would be a lot less. Thanks to this mob it will be stuck at very low levels now, with low wage employment prospects extremely shaky as the ability to fire someone without good cause becomes extremely easy.

Neoliberal economics demands a certain level of unemployment to keep wages artificially low. Recessions are manufactured, as this one is. Then the right and the far right, who implement these policies, will attack those same unemployed whom they engineered into being unemployed in the first place.

Corrupt, no care for any of our citizens apart from the wealthy and powerful. That's neoliberalism. That's National. That's Act.

So the previous government implemented policy that was inflationary and are seen as the good guys because they put up the minimum wage (which happens under every government but hasn't needed to be as significant due to actually managing the economy)

If putting up the minimum wage was the answer why did they stop where they did?

You do realise that there is always a level of unemployment don't you, including over the last 6 years?

When the 90 day trials were last introduced it was actually shown to be beneficial in helping the unemployed with business more likely to take a risk on some who they normally wouldn't.

One might also want to look at the results of the last 6 years and the effect it has had on the lower socio economic area of the population. But it's far easier to just spout neoliberal economics, corrupt, ACT and National bad etc etc. The country is in the worst state it has been for a very long time. Hey maybe 'neoliberal economics' isn't the answer but it is certainly a hell of a lot better than the abomination of what we have just seen under Labour and the Greens.

 

[MaybeTop8]

So the previous government implemented policy that was inflationary and are seen as the good guys because they put up the minimum wage (which happens under every government but hasn't needed to be as significant due to actually managing the economy)

If putting up the minimum wage was the answer why did they stop where they did?

You do realise that there is always a level of unemployment don't you, including over the last 6 years?

When the 90 day trials were last introduced it was actually shown to be beneficial in helping the unemployed with business more likely to take a risk on some who they normally wouldn't.

One might also want to look at the results of the last 6 years and the effect it has had on the lower socio economic area of the population. But it's far easier to just spout neoliberal economics, corrupt, ACT and National bad etc etc. The country is in the worst state it has been for a very long time. Hey maybe 'neoliberal economics' isn't the answer but it is certainly a hell of a lot better than the abomination of what we have just seen under Labour and the Greens.

1. It wasn't just the previous government spending that was inflationary. Worldwide factors played a major part and still do
1a. I didn't hear or see any complaints when all the corporate welfare flowed their way

2. The minimum wage was miles behind and had been falling behind for at least 12 years. At least there was some redress

3. Unemployment is always part of the neo liberal framework. It's a necessity to allow it to function. Interestingly, when the immigration taps were turned off we actually saw the balance tip in favour of employees. Which of course MUST NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN HEAVEN FORBID

4. Sorry. Bullshit on the 90 days.

5. Country in the worst state? Bullshit. Right wing propaganda. I freely admit it's probably not great, Labour were shite. And the greens were outside any economic policy making I believe, Labour governed alone.
5a. No, you're wrong on that last sentence

 

[Inruin]

1. It wasn't just the previous government spending that was inflationary. Worldwide factors played a major part and still do
1a. I didn't hear or see any complaints when all the corporate welfare flowed their way

2. The minimum wage was miles behind and had been falling behind for at least 12 years. At least there was some redress

3. Unemployment is always part of the neo liberal framework. It's a necessity to allow it to function. Interestingly, when the immigration taps were turned off we actually saw the balance tip in favour of employees. Which of course MUST NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN HEAVEN FORBID

4. Sorry. Bullshit on the 90 days.

5. Country in the worst state? Bullshit. Right wing propaganda. I freely admit it's probably not great, Labour were shite. And the greens were outside any economic policy making I believe, Labour governed alone.
5a. No, you're wrong on that last sentence

1. We are now worse than nearly every other country in regards to inflation. While COVID had an external effect on the worlds inflation it can no longer be used as an excuse to cover for our internally caused inflationary policies

2. It wasn't and needed to be lifted drastically above the 'normal' rates after the cost of living got out of control in the last 6 years

3. What are you suggesting then? Zero unemployment? There is always unemployment even when immigration taps are turned off

4. It's not bullshit.

5. So you agree, the country is in the shit. The worst it has been for a long time.

5a nope, I'm right about that, as unpalatable as that may be to you.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Interestingly, when the immigration taps were turned off we actually saw the balance tip in favour of employees. Which of course MUST NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN HEAVEN FORBID

It was diabolical.

- hospitals, schools and police had terrible problems not filling positions leading to massive increases in wait lists, drops in learning and skyrocketing crime. People died from an inability to provide timely health services
- private businesses floundered. Deliveries were not on time, cafes shut due to lack of staff, businesses cut H & S requirements due to lack of staff, businesses actually went under from the inability to operate efficiently.
- projects everywhere went over time and budget - example - any transport project…
- Service dropped everywhere due to lack of staff and if bosses said anything the employee just left. There was a noticeable increase in rude staff.
- domestic inflation skyrocketed as employers outbid each other and raised prices in a no win war.

I personally had to employ people that were not fit for the job because they were the only ones available. I couldn’t train them because they didn’t give a shit and would leave if they didn’t get what they wanted. It’s actually bad for the business, bad for the customers, actually bad for the employees when they are able to underperform without consequences and bad for workplaces/culture/ teams when unsuited people are there because that’s all thats available.

Employers have to have more power in an employment relationship to set standards, policies, culture, etc. Otherwise it’s like the children having the balance of power in their favour in a family… everything falls apart - exactly as we witnesses post covid.

 

[MaybeTop8]

1. We are now worse than nearly every other country in regards to inflation. While COVID had an external effect on the worlds inflation it can no longer be used as an excuse to cover for our internally caused inflationary policies

2. It wasn't and needed to be lifted drastically above the 'normal' rates after the cost of living got out of control in the last 6 years

3. What are you suggesting then? Zero unemployment? There is always unemployment even when immigration taps are turned off

4. It's not bullshit.

5. So you agree, the country is in the shit. The worst it has been for a long time.

5a nope, I'm right about that, as unpalatable as that may be to you.

1. Facts and figures please - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-z...gillespie-opinion/LMSPQ7KLHFHKNPTTKUPZJLVFNI/
If we are doing shit it's because of the reserve bank. Which is independent and manufactures recessions.

5. No don't agree the country is the worst it's been for a long time at all. It's been apparent throughout the entire Labour period that businesses from the outset were determined to maintain pessimism and negativity. I see that in certain people on here.

Untrammelled immigration, low wages, a tax cut for no one but the wealthy - none of that is good for anyone but the wealthy.

Oh and don't tax cuts fuel inflation? Pretty sure you'll find they do.

 

[MaybeTop8]

It was diabolical.

- hospitals, schools and police had terrible problems not filling positions leading to massive increases in wait lists, drops in learning and skyrocketing crime. People died from an inability to provide timely health services
- private businesses floundered. Deliveries were not on time, cafes shut due to lack of staff, businesses cut H & S requirements due to lack of staff, businesses actually went under from the inability to operate efficiently.
- projects everywhere went over time and budget - example - any transport project…
- Service dropped everywhere due to lack of staff and if bosses said anything the employee just left. There was a noticeable increase in rude staff.
- domestic inflation skyrocketed as employers outbid each other and raised prices in a no win war.

I personally had to employ people that were not fit for the job because they were the only ones available. I couldn’t train them because they didn’t give a shit and would leave if they didn’t get what they wanted. It’s actually bad for the business, bad for the customers, actually bad for the employees when they are able to underperform without consequences and bad for workplaces/culture/ teams when unsuited people are there because that’s all thats available.

Employers have to have more power in an employment relationship to set standards, policies, culture, etc. Otherwise it’s like the children having the balance of power in their favour in a family… everything falls apart - exactly as we witnesses post covid.

Employers have had that for over 30 years thanks to neoliberalism wiz.

Look, we could all argue our side of the fence til the cows come home, and I really want to enjoy my Friday, so let's go deep a little bit - let's say i.t. . Wages while high relative to nz, are actually quite poor compared to the rest of the western world. I'm fairly certain that's the case in a number of industries.

So the country as a whole, in a bipartisan approach, could use immigration to target skillsets, as has been touted but then ignored by successive governments. At the same time promote paths through university and training to allow citizens into work that way.

Similarly apprenticeships - through years of (you guessed it) neoliberalism the apprenticeship framework was torn apart.

Now we have huge skillset gaps in many industries, and those that can do the jobs can't afford housing because they're being hoovered up by investors - landlords, big business, and "mom and pop"; so people leave, for better wages and quite frankly a better future.

Health and mental health are in a similar position.

This is generations of neglect by successive governments - the one commonality is neoliberal economics.

Does this sound familiar? https://www.theguardian.com/comment...land-housing-crisis-far-right-europe-refugees

Anyway, that's just one thing. And it's fucking difficult to turn this around.

Personally if all our political parties actually looked to build for the interests of the citizens rather than lobbying groups (what in National and Acts case is quite blatantly wealth and business, and in Labour who the fuck knows? But certainly something of the same flavour) then we might have a fighting chance.

Investment in ourselves.

We also need bipartisan approaches to our infrastructure and many other areas e.g. health, education

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Employers have had that for over 30 years thanks to neoliberalism wiz.

Look, we could all argue our side of the fence til the cows come home, and I really want to enjoy my Friday, so let's go deep a little bit - let's say i.t. . Wages while high relative to nz, are actually quite poor compared to the rest of the western world. I'm fairly certain that's the case in a number of industries.

So the country as a whole, in a bipartisan approach, could use immigration to target skillsets, as has been touted but then ignored by successive governments. At the same time promote paths through university and training to allow citizens into work that way.

Similarly apprenticeships - through years of (you guessed it) neoliberalism the apprenticeship framework was torn apart.

Now we have huge skillset gaps in many industries, and those that can do the jobs can't afford housing because they're being hoovered up by investors - landlords, big business, and "mom and pop"; so people leave, for better wages and quite frankly a better future.

Health and mental health are in a similar position.

This is generations of neglect by successive governments - the one commonality is neoliberal economics.

Does this sound familiar? https://www.theguardian.com/comment...land-housing-crisis-far-right-europe-refugees

Anyway, that's just one thing. And it's fucking difficult to turn this around.

Personally if all our political parties actually looked to build for the interests of the citizens rather than lobbying groups (what in National and Acts case is quite blatantly wealth and business, and in Labour who the fuck knows? But certainly something of the same flavour) then we might have a fighting chance.

Investment in ourselves.

We also need bipartisan approaches to our infrastructure and many other areas e.g. health, education

I get the frustration. But what we are seeing is a country that has stagnated and relied on primary industry and tourism instead of higher value and productivity industries.

Everything flows from there.

We can’t just say we need to up minimum wages or houses are to expensive. Cart before the horse. We need to generate wealth to flow through the economy and rise all boats.

Using an analogy - you have a household with low income because the parents haven’t unskilled and they do menial jobs. The whole households going to struggle. They can’t afford good housing or healthcare. The kids can’t get lots of pocket money. They can’t look at the neighbours who upskill and moan because you don’t have what they have. Upskilling is the key - a productive economy (mining, manufacturing, adding value, using tech, etc)

 

[John Nick]

I get the frustration. But what we are seeing is a country that has stagnated and relied on primary industry and tourism instead of higher value and productivity industries.

Everything flows from there.

We can’t just say we need to up minimum wages or houses are to expensive. Cart before the horse. We need to generate wealth to flow through the economy and rise all boats.

Using an analogy - you have a household with low income because the parents haven’t unskilled and they do menial jobs. The whole households going to struggle. They can’t afford good housing or healthcare. The kids can’t get lots of pocket money. They can’t look at the neighbours who upskill and moan because you don’t have what they have. Upskilling is the key - a productive economy (mining, manufacturing, adding value, using tech, etc)

I use Linkedin regularly with my business .I am continually amazed about complaints of Government depts. use of consultants etc.
Then look at these guys profiles & they are: Aides, Leaders, Experts, Advisors.Consultants,Guides,Confidantes,Counsellors ,Guides,Analysts,Mentors.Etc Etc.
Does anyone do any work?Throw in Boards(jobs for the boys) & committees .Never ending non productivity.
And No cheap shots about superannuitants Wiz.( you will be one sooner than you think)

 

[MaybeTop8]

I get the frustration. But what we are seeing is a country that has stagnated and relied on primary industry and tourism instead of higher value and productivity industries.

Everything flows from there.

We can’t just say we need to up minimum wages or houses are to expensive. Cart before the horse. We need to generate wealth to flow through the economy and rise all boats.

Using an analogy - you have a household with low income because the parents haven’t unskilled and they do menial jobs. The whole households going to struggle. They can’t afford good housing or healthcare. The kids can’t get lots of pocket money. They can’t look at the neighbours who upskill and moan because you don’t have what they have. Upskilling is the key - a productive economy (mining, manufacturing, adding value, using tech, etc)

Your first sentence - 100% agree. We need to build complementary skillsets that allow us to stand alone and excel in. It's not an either or thing.

Neither are the systems we live in. Getting away from binary arguments is useful, as is acknowledging when something doesn't work.

Such as the wahs under Nathan Brown.