Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[dean]

I can tell you that they're not chicken and are certainly not eggs.
They're very militant and very strong minded staunch unionists.
The likes you have never seen here in NZ

I'm not so sure. The days of the Painters and Dockers have long gone.
The Building unions are nowhere near what they were in the 80's.
I know someone at a big Union construction site employing about 60 men. Had a serious accident onsite, the second one this year. Union came in held a meeting, told the employer the site was closed until the Union deemed the site safe. The men refused to walk off the job, didn't support the Union, they went back to work at the employers asking and the Union Official skulked off.
Embarrassing. The Union has high wages and conditions as of right but there grip has slipped big time and when blokes don't back their Official the Employer can do as they like.

 

[Rizzah]

But would you get productivity gains by paying higher? Doesn’t in need capital, infrastructure, investment, machinery, etc.

I’m not against higher pay. I want it. But it needs to be through growing the economy and being more productive. You can’t get blood out of a stone and just say pay everyone more. Look at how doing that to the minimum wage has stalled NZ.

Chicken and egg. To me we need pro business policies and grow the productive and scalable industries to then flow through to higher wages.

Okay, so we can't have FPAs and strengthen worker rights and wages, because we are a know-nothing non-productive economy.
But when that is bullshit Wiz-speak and there is clear evidence of productivity gains outstripping wages, we also can't afford wage increases because of the downward-Wiz-effect on productivity? Lol. Fucking clown show.
We are already pro business in NZ, we are continuously ranked high on the ease of doing business ranks.

World Bank Ranking: NZ #1 (2020, 2019, 2018, 2017)

 

[John Nick]

I'm not so sure. The days of the Painters and Dockers have long gone.
The Building unions are nowhere near what they were in the 80's.
I know someone at a big Union construction site employing about 60 men. Had a serious accident onsite, the second one this year. Union came in held a meeting, told the employer the site was closed until the Union deemed the site safe. The men refused to walk off the job, didn't support the Union, they went back to work at the employers asking and the Union Official skulked off.
Embarrassing. The Union has high wages and conditions as of right but there grip has slipped big time and when blokes don't back their Official the Employer can do as they like.

You are going back a long time ago with the Painters and Dockers.
Had dealings with them back about 40 years ago. Bobby Dix and Puttynose Nicholls.
They all carried guns in those days and with good reason.
Nothing like that these days but still very militant

 

[dean]

Okay, so we can't have FPAs and strengthen worker rights and wages, because we are a know-nothing non-productive economy.
But when that is bullshit Wiz-speak and there is clear evidence of productivity gains outstripping wages, we also can't afford wage increases because of the downward-Wiz-effect on productivity? Lol. Fucking clown show.
We are already pro business in NZ, we are continuously ranked high on the ease of doing business ranks.

World Bank Ranking: NZ #1 (2020, 2019, 2018, 2017)
View attachment 4654

Have you ever been in business?

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Okay, so we can't have FPAs and strengthen worker rights and wages, because we are a know-nothing non-productive economy.
But when that is bullshit Wiz-speak and there is clear evidence of productivity gains outstripping wages, we also can't afford wage increases because of the downward-Wiz-effect on productivity? Lol. Fucking clown show.
We are already pro business in NZ, we are continuously ranked high on the ease of doing business ranks.

World Bank Ranking: NZ #1 (2020, 2019, 2018, 2017)

Ease of doing business has no correlation to how efficient and profitable our businesses are. On the contrary, allowing any old Joe Bloggs to go out contracting instead of working in a business with scale could be part of the problem…

Question - the minimum wage has increased by approx 60% over the last 6 years. Are minimum wages workers a lot better off now? They must all be way, way above the living wage now? No more working poverty? All the working families kids well fed?

 

[Noitall]

Live: Israel carrying out genocide in Gaza, Labour MP says

Parliament opened with a debate on a call for a ceasefire in Israel and Gaza, with Labour and the Greens arguing for greater condemnation of Israel.

www.stuff.co.nz

Good on Damian O Connor having the guts to say it. Totally agree.

 

[Rizzah]

Have you ever been in business?

Are you saying we aren't pro-business in NZ?

 

[juju]

Ease of doing business has no correlation to how efficient and profitable our businesses are. On the contrary, allowing any old Joe Bloggs to go out contracting instead of working in a business with scale could be part of the problem…

Question - the minimum wage has increased by approx 60% over the last 6 years. Are minimum wages workers a lot better off now? They must all be way, way above the living wage now? No more working poverty? All the working families kids well fed?

So disingenuous with your thinking.

How does repealing the policy help lower paid workers, make them feel better off or feed working families?
Ignoring cost of living pressures in your silly theory is just stupid.

Pretty weak you couldn't quit the thread for 24hrs

 

[Rizzah]

Ease of doing business has no correlation to how efficient and profitable our businesses are. On the contrary, allowing any old Joe Bloggs to go out contracting instead of working in a business with scale could be part of the problem…

Question - the minimum wage has increased by approx 60% over the last 6 years. Are minimum wages workers a lot better off now? They must all be way, way above the living wage now? No more working poverty? All the working families kids well fed?

Making businesses more efficient is an investment problem, not a wages problem. If anything wage increases may cause business owners to more readily contemplate investment/innovation to increase productivity.
I would say, gutting regs, employment rights and wages hinder quality, by allowing shitty businesses to survive.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Making businesses more efficient is an investment problem, not a wages problem. If anything wage increases may cause business owners to more readily contemplate investment/innovation to increase productivity.
I would say, gutting regs, employment rights and wages hinder quality, by allowing shitty businesses to survive.

I accept some of those arguments.

But alternatively, employees working for shitty businesses instead of moving to the better employers, allows them to survive.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Are you saying we aren't pro-business in NZ?

I’m talking economy, I won’t go into politics.

But we haven’t been lately… businesses have even hammered - 2 recessions with a third next year; dropping business tax take, lack of staff access, etc.

 

[Noitall]

Winston Peters appears to claim credit for making 'three women PM' in speech, audience member calls it 'gross'

"He was trying to convey he wasn't being sexist whilst being sexist," one said.

www.newshub.co.nz

Sounds like winston didn’t see the irony in his speech that those in the audience did.

 

[kos]

I can’t resist - Australian workers get paid more because they exploit resources, are more productive and have economies or scale. The pay comes from more productivity per worker NOT from unions, fair pay, etc. That’s just a by product of an economy that’s killing it.

We demanded more pay because? We’re anti growth, anti extraction, anti farming, anti business, anti infrastructure investment, etc…

Sound like woke sport where everyone’s a winner even if you don’t try…

Lol
Productivity per worker has been decreasing in Australia for years
Yes mining pours money into the a economy
The Nz low wage trickle down system along with world first housing prices will
Of course inevitable mean more of an export of workers to Aust

 

[Rick O’Shay]

There has been a clear separation between productivity gains and wages since the 90s.
View attachment 4653

Aus has better pay across the board, they didn't gut their employment law in the 90s like we did.

No, but they didn't need to. I have several business interests in WA and QLD and a reasonable relationship with the AWU and Unions WA. Working under fair work agreements.
They confirm declining membership and from memory (haven't checked lately) total union membership was around 14% of the national workforce and Independent contractors were around 17%. This was a few years ago as I recall so wouldn't think it would have improved.

Yes, pay across the board is better than here (we pay approx 25% more in Aus than we do here plus super.) but contactor rates are also much higher in Aus than here. I prefer dealing with unions and having an award based shop as it is easier to cover off more employees than having to deal with a number of independent guys.

However, in my experience, the top tradesmen and performers are all contractors.

 

[kos]

Yes I know what your saying having worked in the transport industry with a mix of company drivers coy trucks and independent contractors with their own trucks
The independent contractors can be time consuming to deal with.
Maybe someone on here can tell me how Mainfreight get on with I think a 100 per cent contractor fleet. It seems to work for them as they keep growing size revenue and profits
But at some part of middle management it’s got to be a bit niggly
I always thought fifty per cent contractor fifty per cent employee each group keeps the other group honest and competitive

 

[John Nick]

Yes I know what your saying having worked in the transport industry with a mix of company drivers coy trucks and independent contractors with their own trucks
The independent contractors can be time consuming to deal with.
Maybe someone on here can tell me how Mainfreight get on with I think a 100 per cent contractor fleet. It seems to work for them as they keep growing size revenue and profits
But at some part of middle management it’s got to be a bit niggly
I always thought fifty per cent contractor fifty per cent employee each group keeps the other group honest and competitive

A close relation was the supplier of concrete to the Auckland Casino many years ago.
He had independent owner drivers carting the concrete and had no end of issues with them.
Wifes banging on his office doors when concrete manufacturing couldn't keep up.
Was a nightmare

 

[kos]

A close relation was the supplier of concrete to the Auckland Casino many years ago.
He had independent owner drivers carting the concrete and had no end of issues with them.
Wifes banging on his office doors when concrete manufacturing couldn't keep up.
Was a nightmare

I had an Auckland owner driver smash the windows on my ( leased) car when I cut his rates as per instructions of my boss
He had just ordered a new four axle rigid to tow a coy trailer
I had to bring him in that afternoon and sack him
You can’t entertain anarchy
His wife was in tears

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Lol
Productivity per worker has been decreasing in Australia for years
Yes mining pours money into the a economy
The Nz low wage trickle down system along with world first housing prices will
Of course inevitable mean more of an export of workers to Aust

NZ GDP per person was above Australia in the 80’s but we had the 87, 98, 08 recessions which Australian powered through due to resources.

Australia mines wealth with huge automation and machinery (per worker) which flows across its economy. We have dairy, agriculture and tourism.

A teacher, nurse or policeman has no difference in productivity between countries despite the huge pay difference. They deserve the same pay but they pay is derived from the productive parts of the economy and in Australia they benefit off the wealth generated by the mining. We can’t simply say pay our teachers the same in NZ and contracts or unions will solve it. We need the national income.

Australia has used their bigger tax take to also invested in infrastructure, is closer to markets, has economies of scale. They also grow their mining to 24/ 7 operations with new mines opening up all the time. NZ has maxed our land and with our income derived from land based use, more population for us makes a fixed income spread across more people making us relatively poorer.

We have pushed efficiencies in farming (more animals per acre, better grass growth, etc) but they come at an environmental cost and can never match simply expanding in a desert with another few mines.

To get GDP growth per worker to rise in NZ we need - a lower population and big rural increases (GE, factory farming, more animals per hectare, more land converted to dairy, etc) all of which we are going away from with the resulting lower GDP per worker. Our prioritisation on well-being, clean/ green and premium products will mean a lower standard of living in NZ than Australia. Were dreaming if we demanding the rights and benefits of growing, developing economies while being a small agricultural place that wants to reduce its wealth streams like mining, forestry and farming.


Ps all the wealth inequity, poverty problems, etc is easier to solve with a platform of a strong growing productive economy. Trickle down doesn’t flow from rich people to poor. Australia is the evidence wealth flows from productive business sectors through the economy. I’ve always advocated build a strong productive economy to pay for strong social services. This is being economically right, socially left that most NZers want.

 

[Rick O’Shay]

Yes I know what your saying having worked in the transport industry with a mix of company drivers coy trucks and independent contractors with their own trucks
The independent contractors can be time consuming to deal with.
Maybe someone on here can tell me how Mainfreight get on with I think a 100 per cent contractor fleet. It seems to work for them as they keep growing size revenue and profits
But at some part of middle management it’s got to be a bit niggly
I always thought fifty per cent contractor fifty per cent employee each group keeps the other group honest and competitive

The biggest advantage as an employer is that there is little impact on your balance sheet. No additional assets (vehicles, tools etc) and you're not carrying holiday pay, sick pay there.

Makes it a tad easier when looking at bank facilities, refinancing and the raising of bonds for projects if the balance sheet is clean.

It used to be said that it was a lot easier to dismiss contractors but the reality is, in this day and age where there are very few redundancy agreements, it's not that difficult to downsize permanent employees if you follow the process.

As a delegate in the 70's and an employer in the 90's onwards, I could never understand how, in the face of declining membership and destructive legislation, the Unions never really changed their game and made their product more attractive .

 

[John Nick]

The biggest advantage as an employer is that there is little impact on your balance sheet. No additional assets (vehicles, tools etc) and you're not carrying holiday pay, sick pay there.

Makes it a tad easier when looking at bank facilities, refinancing and the raising of bonds for projects if the balance sheet is clean.

It used to be said that it was a lot easier to dismiss contractors but the reality is, in this day and age where there are very few redundancy agreements, it's not that difficult to downsize permanent employees if you follow the process.

As a delegate in the 70's and an employer in the 90's onwards, I could never understand how, in the face of declining membership and destructive legislation, the Unions never really changed their game and made their product more attractive .

Replying to your last paragraph I had the same experience as yourself Rick.Both in management & previously as a delegate.
Relationships are deeply influenced by the personality of management & the Union President/Sec.
For example when Geoff Vazey departed POAL things went on a sharp downward spiral.
Same example today with the departure of the last CEO has seen a far better relationship..
Just my experience.
Business NZ Awards judges reporteding on POAL performance this year.
"By establishing effective strategies the Port has improved its financials ,H & S practices & operational performance.
Profits & revenue have skyrocketed".
The only thing to change is the CEO.The Unions are exactly the same .