General Warriors SG Ball 2024

[Five&Last]

Our Jersey Flegg team is in all sorts. I’d be shocked if they don’t cop the wooden spoon. It’s just the very average players from last years SG ball team who are all a year younger than their opposition now. Couple of them are part of the SG ball squad this year who can’t get a game for that team. I dont even think they bothered scouting for Flegg.

 

[Five&Last]

Now forgive my ignorance but the guy on the right I'd the hooked for the Harold matt's right?
He doesn't look that tall or imposing.

Joint captains for Harold Matthews team

One New Zealand Warriors’ Harold Matthews Cup (under-17) side will have co-captains this year.

www.warriors.kiwi

Yup, he’s a gun as well. Doesn’t really fit the generalisation mentioned above for warriors hookers.

He’d probably be the best hooker prospect for his age in Aus and NZ from what I’ve seen. Definitely not a leftover scrap that we’ve picked up.

I’m super high on him. But only 17 so a long way to go to realise any first grade potential.

Even Fukokuka doesn’t really fit that stereotype mentioned, sure he looks like the Havili/Otukolo mould. But last time I checked those guys weren’t nailing 40/20’s from dummy half or kicking sideline conversions.

 

[watcher]

You actually need to define the skills requirement of all positions. I would contend that for Hooker in particular size is not a requirement. It is vision, followed by passing, kicking and running.

The problem is IMO talent identification. There is a mindset of picking the biggest mofos you can find. I had a High School Coach who said the most important part of a player is the top 4 inches.

We often moan about our dumb players. The problem goes further than that.

 

[Viking]

I have no idea TBH. We havent had a decent NZ developed hooker in the modern game ever. To put that in perspective, currently you are probably looking at Siliva Havili as the only credible example and he had to leave our club to get really going. Before him we are talking about Erin Clark, Pita Godinet, Nathaniel Roache and Tevita Leo-Latu. If you were desperate you could add Elijah Taylor and Ben Henry. Australia on the other hand seem to have an embarrassment of riches.

The position is so specialized. In rugby terms you are looking for a cross between a half back and flanker. Not an easy task and looking at the Kiwis teams its very fortunate we have managed to have one decent hooker going for most of our games. We can be thankful that Isaac Luke and Brandon Smith have been available most of the time. We only need to look back at the Kiwis using Nathan Fein to see we haven't always produced hookers of the calibre needed to play at the very top level. Even makeshift hookers like Thomas Leuluai have had to be used in the past for far too long.

Looking at our current development players I only see hookers of the old mould. Pass from dummy and tackle your guts out.

It's probably a multitude of factors but it's definitely a problem and one that's been going around for a while now...

I had good discussion on this after the region of origin trials late last year. No specialised hookers were selected for any team that I know of which surprised me. By specialised I mean players that are great hookers but aren't good enough to be selected in other positions. A good coach then told me that it was because rep selectors like to pick extra halves or 13's to play hooker instead to give them cover in other positions. They'd rather have a small 13 who is big for hooker and will sacrifice great distribution and the agility of a smaller hooker for good distribution and a bigger body close to the line. So if you are a small hooker that isn't an above average half, your chances of making reps are greatly diminished and virtually all your NRL players start out in the junior reps. It still comes back to Auckland's obsession with power footy.

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how these grades work. I haven't seen guys like Jackson Stewart, Bishop Neal, Tom Summers, these guys are not playing because they want them to stay home for now or what not.

Why sign these guys if they are not going to play a part in development in these grades? There are two weeks to go and none of these guys have had a single game? Also the Mikaele brothers!

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

Yup, he’s a gun as well. Doesn’t really fit the generalisation mentioned above for warriors hookers.

He’d probably be the best hooker prospect for his age in Aus and NZ from what I’ve seen. Definitely not a leftover scrap that we’ve picked up.

I’m super high on him. But only 17 so a long way to go to realise any first grade potential.

Even Fukokuka doesn’t really fit that stereotype mentioned, sure he looks like the Havili/Otukolo mould. But last time I checked those guys weren’t nailing 40/20’s from dummy half or kicking sideline conversions.

Where is he!?

 

[Viking]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how these grades work. I haven't seen guys like Jackson Stewart, Bishop Neal, Tom Summers, these guys are not playing because they want them to stay home for now or what not.

Why sign these guys if they are not going to play a part in development in these grades? There are two weeks to go and none of these guys have had a single game? Also the Mikaele brothers!

A few of the boys you've listed are working through injuries. Bishop and one of the twins are injured. Nothing too serious from what I heard. Those three are all eligible for Matts next year so the one that isn't injured has been playing in the SJ Shield series that just wrapped up. The Warriors haven't used many of the u16s boys in Matts so far and the few that have played were injury cover. I like that they've been giving the u17s boys the first go and there is a physical difference between the two age grades. Bishop would be playing if he wasn't injured probably. SG Ball is different because players are out of school so the club doesn't have to negotiate time with the powerhouse rugby schools. What they do after SG Ball is finished will be interesting, not all of them can play Flegg.

 

[sup42]

If we crunch down on Mt Wellingtons numbers it makes sense.

We've only got 30k registered players here. 15% of what Aussie has.

50% of them are māori who's whānau think they're better off with Aussie clubs at the elite level limiting the pool to mostly polynesian kids in Auckland.

Then apparently you've got to be 6 ft at 14 to even get a look in, which is fuck all kids and it's not even conducive for good future hookers if you're already that big at that age.

None of last years Origin hookers Hunt, Grant, Cook, Robson, Koroisau are even 6ft as adults let alone when they were 14, making it even more incredibly stupid that NRL recruits seemingly have a arbirtrary 6ft cut off.

The actual playing numbers in New Zealand are sketchy, the NZRL are terrible at making figures available.
Even the unreliable WIKIPEDIA will tell you that there are only 24 thousand registered players.

Lets assume that figure is accurate.

What people are not grasping is that the adult playing numbers are just over three thousand players.

More than half of that figure in Auckland are women.

So, crudely, if there are fifteen hundred NRL eligible players, imagine from that small pool, how many are NRL prospects? In any sports pool you are hoping to sign people in the 3 percentile. First, second and third best player, a starter, a back up, and a spare wheel.

Three percent of less than fifteen hundred players is roughly thirty players. Now consider the competition for those thirty elite potential New Zealand stars across sixteen teams....then start marveling at how the Warriors have any great NZ spine players on their books.

Hopefully someone can tidy up these estimates, or even better shoot them down entirely, thanks to the NZRL I am filling in lots of blanks here, highly inaccurately probably, but you get the picture off my rough scribbling and counting on my fingers here by candle light *the NRZL run the sport with the same accuracy.

In future, not too far off, Other NRL clubs have been given first dibs on our small pool as the ARL have sold out the rights to players to Australian clubs.....Canterbury is going the same way, and other places.

Hopefully those offshore clubs take an interest in fostering the game here, I doubt it. More likely a colonization of the tiny system and marginalizing the stake of the one NZ NRL franchise in that system.

 

[sup42]

From what I'm hearing its actually the other way around. Maori kids have an aversion to the Warriors and most of it seems to be based off the opinion of family. Let's be honest. If your offered a contract at the Warriors or the Broncos, Titans, Roosters or Storm you are probably going to Australia. Even the Titans have the Keebra carrot to dangle in front of parents.

When the Roosters recruited RTS they moved his whole family over, gave Johnny a scholarship and contract and got both parents well paid jobs. Look at Tanner Stower-Smith. He only signed with us cause he got stuck here during COVID when he was signed for the Bulldogs and meant to be playing for their SG Ball team.

The two best junior forward prospects IMO from last season who are both Maori are Charleston Te Rore and Torino Jackson and both signed to the Roosters and Titans respectively despite being heavily enticed by the Warriors. Some of the Warriors Harold Matthews players with all due respect are players who have been cut from other clubs like the Roosters.

I get it. The club doesn't have the best record with developing juniors and until we see some genuine success, establish a better junior system in NZ and more competitive school system we will always play second fiddle to most Aussie clubs...

From my experience of talking with the people, the Warriors lost some of their attraction to some Maori when they seemed to become a club for the NZ Poly diaspora ahead of local Poly Maori.

Excuse the wordiness, but since this is a talk about cultures, I do not like saying lazy terms like Islanders vs Maori, Maori are fecking Islanders, as are most Pakeha for that matter (they came from the British Isles and moved to Pacific Isles called NZ).

And I don't like use of Language in this country where some Maori seem to have cut themselves out of Polynesia or being Polynesian (Oww you all came from the Ïslands far off to the East) nor do I like it when others cut us off from Polynesia.

I am just talking truth from the streets and the neighborhoods (a version of truth, not claiming it is a fair account of what was actually happening).

From the outside of the Warriors through some Maori eyes, they seemed to take a direction where the cuzzies from up north of Aotearoa took over, this is fed in part by what happened to the make up of Clubs in South Auckland in my youth, from the nineties onward.

Even the media exposure and chatter about Warriors playing culture was blind to Maori, all the talk has been about how to get the best out of the diaspora of Polynesia, this of course is a two sided coin, the criticism of the Warriors lack of performance is blamed by many on having too many players from those groups.

For a large part of Warrior history, the identity even the game day experience with the Kuki drums seemed to have put other people ahead of the Tangata Whenua (not me, I grew up with those drums sounds in my house and in my hood, always saw them as part of me).

This perception probably reached its height when Manu was the face of the club, that was an era where John Acklands win it with big Boys culture seemed to be going in a direction that Maori had little to identify with. My cousin who was a pet of John Acklands would strongly disagree that getting the attention of the Warriors was in someway unfair for Maori, but he was an exceptional player. I mention him, because of course nothing I will say about how Maori think will apply to all Maori on any point.

I try to take a very broad step back and look at the whole picture view of all this stuff.

Tainui Waikato are partly to blame for Maori dissatisfaction with the Warriors, I won't derail the convo this is long korero anyway, but they should never have used our money to buy that club, and the Royal families corporate box turned off a lot of Tuturu (definitely to the bone) Maori. Shame my cousins on that one.

Then you have figures like Stephen Kearney, that came from within the Warriors and ended up embittered about the club (skip the reasons) and ended up taking his considerable influence and Mana down in Wellington offshore to the Melbourne Storm, followed by another Maori leader in Tawera Nikau drawing the attention of regional Maori away to the Storm.

Those two led the turning away from the Warriors (the Warriors were a mess, this had ZERO to do with the Poly diaspora involved in the club).

Out of these seeds of discontent came prejudice from some Maori towards the Warriors and outright racism aimed at the Poly diaspora from other quarters.

The stereo type being, that the reason the Warriors are not good is because (excuse the ugly reference here) "there are too many Islanders, not enough Maori and or Pakeha.....not enough Aussies yadda yadda yadda.

The so called Elephant in the room is a load racist but tempted as I am to go a huge rant I will side step that one.

The important thing to remember is that while some were blaming the Pacific Island nations players (not including Maori) a club like Penrith was going quietly about training and developing their large catchment of ethnic groups into the most powerful League system ever seen.

Lots fans here seemed to want less Islanders, more grafter types, and a coach like Bellamy.

In other words a model that is not transferable to Aoteoroa New Zealand's biggest talent base.

Thankfully the Panthers came along and blew the Elephant in the room myth off the park, their model is nuanced to players strengths rather than a system which you only select a type of player for. Not everything at Melbourne is limiting though, indeed their training standards are where everyone should be aiming.

Then Tonga took the world buy Storm, latterly followed by Samoa. So what happened to the too many Islanders excuse then eh....in the rubbish where it belongs.

Which brings me back to the point of talking cultures and Maori attitudes towards the Warriors.

The challenge for Maori as I see it is to rise above (not above others) to rise above their own limits and put aside past suspicions and hurts real or perceived, it is time to come home, come home to play in the shadow of the Mountain, Rarotonga Mt Smart.

The best version of the Warriors is inclusive of all, especially our Island nations players. Unfortunately there are many stories still percolating about Maori like Bully and SKD being rejected by the Warriors, get over it, rise up, stop running off to Aussie (said from the heart with no care for the realities of opportunities and what is best for kids and families).

Lets have more video of the Warriors singing Waiata on the bus and having hangi....that stuff is powerful in the eyes of Whanau.

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

From my experience of talking with the people, the Warriors lost their attraction to Maori when they seemed to become a club for the NZ Poly diaspora ahead of local Poly Maori.

Excuse the wordiness, but since this is a talk about cultures, I do not like saying lazy terms like Islanders vs Maori, Maori are fecking Islanders, as are most Pakeha for that matter (they came from the British Isles and moved to Pacific Isles called NZ).

And I don't like use of Language in this country where some Maori seem to have cut themselves out of Polynesia or being Polynesian (Oww you all came from the Ïslands far off to the East) nor do I like it when others cut us off from Polynesia.

I am just talking truth from the streets and the neighborhoods (a version of truth, not claiming it is a fair account of what was actually happening).

From the outside of the Warriors through Maori eyes, they seemed to take a direction where the cuzzies from up north of Aotearoa took over, this is fed in part by what happened to the make up of Clubs in South Auckland in my youth, from the nineties onward.

Even the media exposure and chatter about Warriors playing culture was blind to Maori, all the talk has been about how to get the best out of the diaspora of Polynesia, this of course is a two sided coin, the criticism of the Warriors lack of performance is blamed by many on having too many players from those groups.

For a large part of Warrior history, the identity even the game day experience with the Kuki drums seemed to have put other people ahead of the Tanga Whenua (not me, I grew up with those drums sounds in my house and in my hood, always saw them as part of me).

This perception probably reached its height when Manu was the face of the club, that was an era where John Acklands win it with big Boys culture seemed to be going in a direction that Maori had little to identify with. My cousin who was a pet of John Acklands would strongly disagree that getting the attention of the Warriors was in someway unfair for Maori, but he was an exceptional player. I mention him, because of course nothing I will say about how Maori think will apply to all Maori on any point.

I try to take a very broad step back and look at the whole picture view of all this stuff.

Tainui Waikato are partly to blame for Maori dissatisfaction with the Warriors, I won't derail the convo this is long korero anyway, but they should never have used our money to buy that club, and the Royal families corporate box turned off a lot of Tuturu (definitely to the bone) Maori. Shame my cousins on that one.

Then you have figures like Stephen Kearney, that came from within the Warriors and ended up embittered about the club (skip the reasons) and ended up taking his considerable influence and Mana down in Wellington offshore to the Melbourne Storm, followed by another Maori leader in Tawera Nikau drawing the attention of regional Maori away to the Storm.

Those two led the turning away from the Warriors (the Warriors were a mess, this had ZERO to do with the Poly diaspora involved in the club).

Out of these seeds of discontent came prejudice from some Maori towards the Warrirors and outright racism aimed at the Poly diaspora from other quarters.

The stereo type being, that the reason the Warriors are not good is because (excuse the ugly reference here) "there are too many Islanders, not enough Maori and or Pakeha.....not enough Aussies yadda yadda yadda.

The so called Elephant in the room is a load racist shit but tempted as I am to go a huge rant I will side step that one.

The important thing to remember is that while some were blaming the Pacific Island nations players (not including Maori) a club like Penrith was going quietly about training and developing their large catchment of ethnic groups into the most powerful League system ever seen.

Lots fans here seemed to want less Islanders, more grafter types, and a coach like Bellamy.

In other words a model that is not transferable to Aoteoroa New Zealand's biggest talent base.

Thankfully the Panthers came along and blew the Elephant in the room myth off the park, their model is nuanced to players strengths rather than a system which you only select a type of player for. Not everything at Melbourne is limiting though, indeed their training standards are where everyone should be aiming.

Then Tonga took the world buy Storm, latterly followed by Samoa. So what happened to the too many Islanders excuse then eh....in the rubbish where it belongs.

Which brings me back to the point of talking cultures and Maori attitudes towards the Warriors.

The challenge for Maori as I see it is to rise above (not above others) to rise above their own limits and put aside past suspicions and hurts real or perceived, it is time to come home, come home to play in the shadow of the Mountain, Rarotonga Mt Smart.

The best version of the Warriors is inclusive of all, especially our Island nations players. Unfortunately there are many stories still percolating about Maori like Bully and SKD being rejected by the Warriors, get over it, rise up, stop running off to Aussie (said from the heart with no care for the realities of opportunities and what is best for kids and families).

Lets have more video of the Warriors singing Waiata on the bus and having hangi....that stuff is powerful in the eyes of Whanau.

I wouldn't worry about it, our team is australian anyways!

 

[sup42]

I wouldn't worry about it, our team is australian anyways!

I'm not worried.
In fact I am excited, hopeful and dare I say it faithful to the cause.

We do need more White fellahs from NZ playing League in the NRL though, hope to see it happen before I pop my clogs.

There is a real hunger for the Vanilla Ice great hope around here.... dare I mention the messianic complex of late....?

Toby....anyone? (oh the irony, the only famous Toby's I know are Kunta Kente then a golly mopped shiny skinned kid from Wellington).

 

[Theking267]

I think that will change as you will see more Māori juniors coming through as the Warriors have aligned themselves with BOP Coastlines. As Auckland Rugby League is aligned with Manly and Canterbury Rugby League is aligned to the Bulldogs.

 

[Five&Last]

As Auckland Rugby League is aligned with Manly and Canterbury Rugby League is aligned to the Bulldogs.

I don’t know how true that is.
We have more Christchurch juniors on our books than any other club at the moment. And not sure where the manly link comes from

 

[sup42]

I don’t know how true that is.
We have more Christchurch juniors on our books than any other club at the moment. And not sure where the manly link comes from

There was an article bro, sadly it is true, at the time where the Warriors just started bringing in Cantabs fine young players, Canterbury RL were approached by Manly Waringah.

The article is actually mainly about the Auckland Rugby league cutting deals with other clubs in Australia but the Canterbury situation is in the same article.

 

[sup42]

I think that will change as you will see more Māori juniors coming through as the Warriors have aligned themselves with BOP Coastlines. As Auckland Rugby League is aligned with Manly and Canterbury Rugby League is aligned to the Bulldogs.

That is good news about the BOP Coast. Regional NZ is the real gold mine. It seems our finest forwards come from outside of Auckland in the modern era.
The three Kiwi Warrior truly great forwards are from outside of Auckland, Kearney, Harris, Mannering, those are genuine legends all three and then Sam Rapira would have been on the same echelon had he not suffered injuries.
There are lots of others but those three stand out as ex Auckland and I can only really put one Auckland forward in their company Ali Lauaitiiti. Ruben is of that class, but he was mainly a Raider who came home old. Bully....another champion, who sadly diminished his status here, even though as a non Auckland player he was one of this countries best if not the best hooker of all time.

We all know that the truly tough guys in NZ come from the regions. Hardier lifestyle breeds harder men.

 

[Viking]

I don’t know how true that is.
We have more Christchurch juniors on our books than any other club at the moment. And not sure where the manly link comes from

Yeah, no region is predominantly aligned to one club. Some of the ARL staff work also at the Warriors for instance but ARL players go to a lot of different NRL clubs. Agents organise a lot of it.

 

[Christchurch_Warrior]

There was an article bro, sadly it is true, at the time where the Warriors just started bringing in Cantabs fine young players, Canterbury RL were approached by Manly Waringah.

The article is actually mainly about the Auckland Rugby league cutting deals with other clubs in Australia but the Canterbury situation is in the same article.

I thought it was the Bulldog.

CANTERBURY RUGBY LEAGUE SIGNS PARTNERSHIP WITH NRL'S CANTERBURY-BANKSTOWN BULLDOGS - Canterbury Rugby League – Home to the Canterbury Bulls

Canterbury Rugby League’s newly established partnership with Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs is set to provide players and coaches from our region with unprecedented development opportunities and pathways to progress to Australia’s elite age-group and senior men’s and women’s competitions...

canterburyrugbyleague.co.nz

 

[Theking267]

I think with Manly it’s because Graeme Lowe is currently the head of Auckland Rugby League & still seems to have loyalties to Manly. We definitely have signed a lot of juniors from Christchurch. Got in their before the Bulldogs

 

[sup42]

I thought it was the Bulldog.

CANTERBURY RUGBY LEAGUE SIGNS PARTNERSHIP WITH NRL'S CANTERBURY-BANKSTOWN BULLDOGS - Canterbury Rugby League – Home to the Canterbury Bulls

Canterbury Rugby League’s newly established partnership with Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs is set to provide players and coaches from our region with unprecedented development opportunities and pathways to progress to Australia’s elite age-group and senior men’s and women’s competitions...

canterburyrugbyleague.co.nz

Thanks.
I know Manly made an approach too.
Yep the Dogs are taking the lead down there thanks to Guss. His time at the Warriors as a development expert lead him directly to Canterbury.

Smart guy, bang on point, Canterbury is the home of the best and toughest people in New Zealand.

There is a NZ ethos or legend or perhaps even Myth about being a tiny nation of over reachers, well Canterbury is where the hardest and ugliest Pioneers landed, the NZ of NZ, and the Maori who had to put up with them are equally as hardcore.

There it is, Canterbury is the old NZ and the hothouse of the chip on the shoulder thing the Aussies call the battler.....

 

[Viking]

I think with Manly it’s because Graeme Lowe is currently the head of Auckland Rugby League & still seems to have loyalties to Manly. We definitely have signed a lot of juniors from Christchurch. Got in their before the Bulldogs

He's not the head of ARL but he's been helping the CEO out according to a few media articles from last year. If there is an alliance between the ARL and Manly, it hasn't really kicked off yet because I don't know of any Auckland teenagers on their books. I'm sure there are some but no more than any of other NRL clubs.