Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Inruin]

The Hypocrisy of what's affordable and what's not

The things that are unaffordable and the things that aren’t

$3 billion for a new hospital? Unaffordable. $3 billion for a new motorway? Now we’re talking.

thespinoff.co.nz

As much as I dislike arguments that are this or the other type points, this is a valid one. If you are going to pull back somewhere, I'm not sure a hospital is the prudent or even politically right thing to do. It does look like they have been stuck with the previous governments inability to cost things properly and budget over runs. It also puts in to perspective the previous governments borrowing and spending with little accountability or anything of real substance to show for it. At one point borrowing a billion dollars a week. We really should have had two or three hospitals in the process already with that kind of money being burned through.

 

[MaybeTop8]

As much as I dislike arguments that are this or the other type points, this is a valid one. If you are going to pull back somewhere, I'm not sure a hospital is the prudent or even politically right thing to do. It does look like they have been stuck with the previous governments inability to cost things properly and budget over runs. It also puts in to perspective the previous governments borrowing and spending with little accountability or anything of real substance to show for it. At one point borrowing a billion dollars a week. We really should have had two or three hospitals in the process already with that kind of money being burned through.

We strangely agree

 

[MaybeTop8]

Lack of accountability, lack of scrutiny, lack of democracy

Govt sets record for laws passed under urgency in first 100 days

No MMP government has passed more bills through the House under urgency in its first 100 days than the new coalition, data analysis shows.

newsroom.co.nz

 

[Tragic]

Lack of accountability, lack of scrutiny, lack of democracy

Govt sets record for laws passed under urgency in first 100 days

No MMP government has passed more bills through the House under urgency in its first 100 days than the new coalition, data analysis shows.

newsroom.co.nz

I actually don't mind that for things that make sense or just free up building infrastructure, improve health etc but not that keen on some of the things they have done to appease lobbyists. But in general faster is better.

 

[Brightman]

Lack of accountability, lack of scrutiny, lack of democracy

Govt sets record for laws passed under urgency in first 100 days

No MMP government has passed more bills through the House under urgency in its first 100 days than the new coalition, data analysis shows.

newsroom.co.nz

well helloo... MMP!!

 

[MrFrankWhite]

As much as I dislike arguments that are this or the other type points, this is a valid one. If you are going to pull back somewhere, I'm not sure a hospital is the prudent or even politically right thing to do. It does look like they have been stuck with the previous governments inability to cost things properly and budget over runs. It also puts in to perspective the previous governments borrowing and spending with little accountability or anything of real substance to show for it. At one point borrowing a billion dollars a week. We really should have had two or three hospitals in the process already with that kind of money being burned through.

Surely you can see the folly on spending 3B on a population of 110K. Auckland, sure. Christchurch at an absolute stretch. But Dunedin? Madness

 

[MaybeTop8]

Surely you can see the folly on spending 3B on a population of 110K. Auckland, sure. Christchurch at an absolute stretch. But Dunedin? Madness

There's a history there though, and the total cost will have elements of fantasy as that's come from the current government, who are clearly looking to slash and burn at any cost.

That hospital won't just serve Dunedin, it's the entire southern region for a large amount of services.

And people have been dying on waiting lists down there, the oncology success rate is appalling.

 

[Inruin]

Surely you can see the folly on spending 3B on a population of 110K. Auckland, sure. Christchurch at an absolute stretch. But Dunedin? Madness

Otago region is around 250k population I think. Still a lot of money but it's a great asset to have for them. In NZ everything seems more expensive to make as well. I see more folly in borrowing and burning money like we have for the previous how many few years and not having assets to show for it.

 

[Inruin]

It's the degree of government cutbacks too spending that people don't like. Unfortunately, we're suffering more than most countries because our Reserve Bank went too fast, too far and for too long, before acknowledging that inflation was coming down. Couple that with a government which, IMO, is going too far with it's cost cutting and steadfastly refusing to look at any form of preventing wealth transfer, and we're going to take a lot longer to recover than most other countries.

Do you think this governments cost cutting is a case of what goes up must come down type scenario. People talk about a manufactured recession but what would you call the last few years? An artificial stimulus? We have probably been in recession for quite a few years now. Some of the government spending to prop up the economy during the COVID lockdowns was absolutely necessary but it feels like we had an out of control family member paying for everything on their credit card and continually extending the credit limit. And now that's been cut up to try and get back to a sustainable level of spending.
I do think the reserve bank needs a review in how it manages inflation. And while historically it seems to be an issue for them going late on rises and decreases in interest rates, I do wonder about the appointments made and their relevant experience.

 

[Noitall]

Do you think this governments cost cutting is a case of what goes up must come down type scenario. People talk about a manufactured recession but what would you call the last few years? An artificial stimulus? We have probably been in recession for quite a few years now. Some of the government spending to prop up the economy during the COVID lockdowns was absolutely necessary but it feels like we had an out of control family member paying for everything on their credit card and continually extending the credit limit. And now that's been cut up to try and get back to a sustainable level of spending.
I do think the reserve bank needs a review in how it manages inflation. And while historically it seems to be an issue for them going late on rises and decreases in interest rates, I do wonder about the appointments made and their relevant experience.

I think we have barriers in this country that’s not seeing us repair to the degree of other countries, like a small population and a smaller tax take than what other countries our size take but I think the world is in a covid hangover and will be for years depending on each country’s circumstances. I see the national party has come to the realisation that debt is necessary to actually get things done. While our debt has seemed enormous at times over the past few years, we’ve always managed a credit rating that’s shown that spending was always viewed as manageable by the powers that be. And also while not making excuses for the previous government as some spending did come across as excessive, they also inherited some things that needed money like an emergency housing initiative and a badly damaged health system that was at the centre of what was needed in the covid setting, and that’s due to both major parties. I think with a recognition by both parties that debt is necessary to achieve outcomes, and this government unhappy with the previous governments decisions regarding spending and vice versa with the current government and opposition, it shows that not only is cross party support needed for big spends, but also young representatives to represent the young people that are going to inherit the debt through their lifetimes in the tax they pay

 

[Noitall]

ganesh nana on q and a - Google Search

www.google.com

Thought this guy was well worth a listen this morning. Our personal debt is perhaps the biggest issue

 

[juju]

Otago region is around 250k population I think. Still a lot of money but it's a great asset to have for them. In NZ everything seems more expensive to make as well. I see more folly in borrowing and burning money like we have for the previous how few years and not having assets to show for it.

I get the sentiment but the caveat is it was a global pandemic which you don't seem to mention in the context of the borrowing.
How it was used... sure. It wasn't exactly folly considering what other countries did also.

The current government seems to be prioritising some weird things for ideology reasons while ignoring any data & advice to make the best decisions for the country.
It's going to be interesting how that plays out in the polls.

* edit You did acknowledge the pandemic borrowing later

 

[Inruin]

I think we have barriers in this country that’s not seeing us repair to the degree of other countries, like a small population and a smaller tax take than what other countries our size take but I think the world is in a covid hangover and will be for years depending on each country’s circumstances. I see the national party has come to the realisation that debt is necessary to actually get things done. While our debt has seemed enormous at times over the past few years, we’ve always managed a credit rating that’s shown that spending was always viewed as manageable by the powers that be. And also while not making excuses for the previous government as some spending did come across as excessive, they also inherited some things that needed money like an emergency housing initiative and a badly damaged health system that was at the centre of what was needed in the covid setting, and that’s due to both major parties. I think with a recognition by both parties that debt is necessary to achieve outcomes, and this government unhappy with the previous governments decisions regarding spending and vice versa with the current government and opposition, it shows that not only is cross party support needed for big spends, but also young representatives to represent the young people that are going to inherit the debt through their lifetimes in the tax they pay

We have agriculture and tourism. The first has been under attack and the second is going to take a long time to recover. We don't or aren't allowed to utilize other natural resources like Australia does for example. Yes our credit rating remains ok, that doesn't mean we are in a good place. Debt is necessary for funding but it needs to be used IMO to provide those assets and infrastructure, I just didn't see that improving to any great degree despite the borrowing previously. I agree cross party support is necessary but it's never going to be agreed to. Roading for example was run down by the previous government and is now a high priority for this one. Is light rail a yes or a no? Is a cycle bridge across the harbour a yes or no? Are roads of national significance a yes or no? Etc etc There are fundamental differences in ideologies and mmp has arguably made that worse or even harder to come to a consensus. I also think there is enough young people represented. And often life experience, or rather lack of, is a bigger issue than the age of the representative. What I do think is that we need to be more realistic with what we are doing, asking for and spending money on. More controlled and measured, with accountability. And that's for all parties and governments we have.

 

[John Nick]

I get the sentiment but the caveat is it was a global pandemic which you don't seem to mention in the context of the borrowing.
How it was used... sure. It wasn't exactly folly considering what other countries did also.

The current government seems to be prioritising some weird things for ideology reasons while ignoring any data & advice to make the best decisions for the country.
It's going to be interesting how that plays out in the polls.

* edit You did acknowledge the pandemic borrowing later

Dont think the current Government would be getting this much flak over Dunedin hospital if it hadnt be used as a political tool to garner votes at the election.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Dont think the current Government would be getting this much flak over Dunedin hospital if it hadnt be used as a political tool to garner votes at the election.

Dunedin's been a scandal for years though - they've been very poorly served, and people have lost their lives in that system unnecessarily.

 

[juju]

Dont think the current Government would be getting this much flak over Dunedin hospital if it hadnt be used as a political tool to garner votes at the election.

Theres is that...

But also exasperated by the interest deductibility billions + a couple hundred million tax break for heated tobacco products + tax cuts people didn't really want, people will start wondering...

 

[Inruin]

The current government seems to be prioritising some weird things for ideology reasons while ignoring any data & advice to make the best decisions for the country.
It's going to be interesting how that plays out in the polls.

The polls seem to be holding up very well. Consumer confidence and business confidence are up, though those seem to be based on a feeling rather than any solid factors or change in personal circumference. This government has definitely made some weird calls but also seem to have made a number of very good ones as well. The feeling I have, at least on the face of it, is that they are trying to at least manage things. Rightly or wrongly, whether you agree with them or not, I just get the feeling there is actually action and urgency to get things done. It will be interesting to see the targets and measures reported over time, and a number of things are going to need a fair bit of time to see change, like education standards for example. I think the vast majority of people aknowledge the borrowing and spending needed during lockdowns was necessary to keep the economy moving. i think that's just a given now Outside of that though I think many struggled to see any improvements in key areas of health, education, crime, infrastructure despite the borrowing and spending continuing - and we aren't talking about small sums here. And I think that's what the majority of people have seen and are currently seeing and why the polls are remaining very stable after a year in power.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Theres is that...

But also exasperated by the interest deductibility billions + a couple hundred million tax break for heated tobacco products + tax cuts people didn't really want, people will start wondering...

100%

 

[MaybeTop8]

The polls seem to be holding up very well. Consumer confidence and business confidence are up, though those seem to be based on a feeling rather than any solid factors or change in personal circumference. This government has definitely made some weird calls but also seem to have made a number of very good ones as well. The feeling I have, at least on the face of it, is that they are trying to at least manage things. Rightly or wrongly, whether you agree with them or not, I just get the feeling there is actually action and urgency to get things done. It will be interesting to see the targets and measures reported over time, and a number of things are going to need a fair bit of time to see change, like education standards for example. I think the vast majority of people aknowledge the borrowing and spending needed during lockdowns was necessary to keep the economy moving. i think that's just a given now Outside of that though I think many struggled to see any improvements in key areas of health, education, crime, infrastructure despite the borrowing and spending continuing - and we aren't talking about small sums here. And I think that's what the majority of people are have seen and are currently seeing and why the polls are remaining very stable after a year in power.

There's action and urgency to implement their backers plans, definitely.

 

[Inruin]

Theres is that...

But also exasperated by the interest deductibility billions + a couple hundred million tax break for heated tobacco products + tax cuts people didn't really want, people will start wondering...

Interest deductibility is debatable, tobacco products yes, I haven't met to many people yet who have said they didn't want a tax cut.