Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[MaybeTop8]

oh and hey @MaybeTop8 i also just wanted to add, i feel like i’m telling you off or having a go at you a lot of the time and i don’t mean to at all.
it’s fun to debate stuff and it’s good to have differing opinions.
i want you to know that even if i say some snarky shit (and i do) it’s all in good fun and i’m sure i speak for everyone when i say there’s no ill will.

All good thanks Marv, appreciated, and likewise. It's a good exercise in engagement at least.

I'm trying, admittedly clumsily, to get the conversation out of the binary that we often get stuck in, although I seem to offer only points or links that engender binary positioning. Hard not to be outraged (at least I am) at what I see is the dismantling of our democracy and privatisation by stealth.

Trying to get some of these things looked at objectively - e.g. the disproportionate corrupt influence of ACT and NZ First - big tobacco and guns.

Or winding back all of Labour's policies for seemingly no other reason than ideological. And I'm no fan of Labour.

Or the tax cut we can't afford, causing untold damage to our health system, to those who have been made redundant. to all the cuts to social services etc etc

I'm getting carried away again.

Because we have been here before, at least three times, and this lot are just more adept at getting it done. I've lived through the damage done before, and it's obvious that this lot have no answers apart from to increase the wealth gap and strengthen the societal divide. (disclaimer - in my opinion )

 

[MaybeTop8]

The Act Party website is not the actual bill...

Have you read literally anything outside of the Act Party website?

Do you really think posting the benign parts of the PR spin actually make it all better?

Are peoples grasp of the treaty really this bad?

yes sadly.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Wealthy people pay lower tax in NZ than in similar states, study shows

Well-off Kiwis are paying less tax than they would in Australia, Canada, the US or the United Kingdom.

www.rnz.co.nz

 

[defensivebomb]

Ok how about providing lany sort of reading material oropinion on the topic outside of Act Party PR spin so we can all read the differing view on the forum. Could you even do that?

You realise even just mentioning lobbyists while trying desperately to defend a shoddy Act Party policy is utterly ridiculous right?

It’s all good. I’m not going to defend the policy too strongly as I don’t feel massively beholden to it. I just don’t feel it is as abhorrent as it characterised. Some of it (eg the equality aspect) is actually pretty reasonable I didn’t even vote Act, so I’m not going to die in a ditch for them

Over time, NZs ethnic mix will change and it is reasonable to want to have a set of laws that are agnostic to race. That’s my view anyway. I’m sure others would differ and I can’t be arsed trying to change that

Anyway, as before, not really going to expend too much energy here on it

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Wealthy people pay lower tax in NZ than in similar states, study shows

Well-off Kiwis are paying less tax than they would in Australia, Canada, the US or the United Kingdom.

www.rnz.co.nz

the Victoria University study commissioned by Tax Justice Aotearoa

The study looked at how much tax someone earning five times the average New Zealand wage - around $330,000 - would pay in nine comparable nations. The countries chosen included English-speaking nations with similar political systems including Australia, Canada, the US, the United Kingdom, and five European countries.
At this point the jokes right themselves.

Executive Committee

A fairer society through tax reform

www.tjanz.org

 

[defensivebomb]

Wealthy people pay lower tax in NZ than in similar states, study shows

Well-off Kiwis are paying less tax than they would in Australia, Canada, the US or the United Kingdom.

www.rnz.co.nz

The study was commissioned by “Tax Justice Aotearoa”

 

[MaybeTop8]

the Victoria University study commissioned by Tax Justice Aotearoa

The study looked at how much tax someone earning five times the average New Zealand wage - around $330,000 - would pay in nine comparable nations. The countries chosen included English-speaking nations with similar political systems including Australia, Canada, the US, the United Kingdom, and five European countries.
At this point the jokes right themselves.

Executive Committee

A fairer society through tax reform

www.tjanz.org

Keep ignoring facts Frank.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Keep ignoring facts Frank.

The fact is these two people have never worked in the private sector a day in their lives. Living off the public teat for your entire adult life doesn't lend to credibility.

 

[Bay39er]

The fact is these two people have never worked in the private sector a day in their lives. Living off the public teat for your entire adult life doesn't lend to credibility.

View attachment 9597

Is not having a governance role on a board working in the private sector?

 

[Fred]

Keep ignoring facts Frank.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Is not having a governance role on a board working in the private sector?

Even if it was a private company which it doesn't state, I wouldn't think so. Some board roles are rock up and vote how we want you to. Some are unpaid.

Good point though.

 

[Worried2Death]

It takes generations to breed out. The Anglo's were afraid of bathing when the Saxons civilized them.

Have you got a source for this factoid? If so, it verifies all my suspicions about those filthy soap dodgers.

 

[miket12]

Wealthy people pay lower tax in NZ than in similar states, study shows

Well-off Kiwis are paying less tax than they would in Australia, Canada, the US or the United Kingdom.

www.rnz.co.nz

Interesting but very simplistic. NZ has one of the highest sales taxes (in the form of GST) than most of those countries. Company tax is higher in NZ. In the US, deductions (standard and itemized) drops their income tax bills dramatically... Warren Buffett famously said he paid less income tax than his secretary.

Interesting that Denmark is mentioned in there as an example. It's one of the most highest taxed countries in the world but also has one of the lowest household net worth in the OECD. Their average net worth per household is just under US$190,000 compared to an OECD average of just under US$325,000. By comparison, the average net worth per household (based on 2022 figures) in NZ is just under US$250,000.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Have you got a source for this factoid? If so, it verifies all my suspicions about those filthy soap dodgers.

Been to Norway and its in a few inscriptions but you can read it here.

Filthy Barbarians or Dapper Danes?

Of all reasons to go to war, it is a hell of a thing for Medieval English chroniclers to admit they had to kill Vikings because their own wives and daughters couldn't resist their cleanliness.

sonsofvikings.com

 

[Worried2Death]

Been to Norway and its in a few inscriptions but you can read it here.

Filthy Barbarians or Dapper Danes?

Of all reasons to go to war, it is a hell of a thing for Medieval English chroniclers to admit they had to kill Vikings because their own wives and daughters couldn't resist their cleanliness.

sonsofvikings.com

Sounds like Viking propaganda. I thought the Romans introduced them to baths before any krauts or vikings showed up, wish Bruce was here so we could ask for an eye witness account.

 

[miket12]

Something else to consider about the net worth of households in NZ. For a household to be considered in the Top 20% wealth wise in NZ, they would need a net worth of $1.15 million.... which is a free hold house in Auckland (median sale price in Auckland for August 2024 was $960,00) plus less than $200K in other assets.

To be in the Top 10% wealthiest households in NZ requires a net worth of $2 million.... which would also put that household in the worldwide 1 percenters club.

Top 5% requires a household net worth of $3.15 million while to reach the Top 1% wealthiest people in NZ requires a household net worth of $7.59 million.

Figures are from opes partners.

 

[marv.]

I'm just curious how all that money was spent on your education & that was your reply on the topic of the video

Posting Act Party PR...

Dropping emoji's on differing views...

Do they teach critical thinking at private school? Us poor's will never know.

not pointed at either of you guys, but this is such a crazy conversation to see.

i’ve never been anywhere else in the world (and ive seen a LOT of the world) where people use wealth, success or achievement as a diss. like thats something you should be embarrassed about or feel guilty for?!

it’s just another form of tall poppy syndrome.
another way we can tear down those trying hard or doing well because it exposes our own failings, weakness, laziness or misfortune i suppose.

making fun of and trying to make someone feel guilty rather than trying to better ourselves is such a kiwi thing to do.

classic.


anyhow i’ve been out running all afternoon in the wind and just opened my first of what will probably be 900 beers. both bettering myself and then tearing it all down. hahahaha

as you were.

 

[marv.]

My take on it is that māori in NZ are over represented in the lower socio economic group in the country, though not limited to just māori there either. This is likely because of a mix of historical issues, lack of role models, education, victim mentality, members of that group keeping them down, lack of ambition or drive to better ones self etc. That group would seem to me to be more likely to be committing crimes for a number of various reasons and therefore over representative in crime statistics. Add the problem we have with 501s being deported back here, though I would consider this a fairly low percentage of the problem.

Those who move to Australia seem more wanting to better themselves or their circumstances, remove themselves from their current environment, possibly have more ambition and have achieved a decent level of education. They likely move with a job already lined up. Probably more likely to be driven, focused, less of a victim mentality and a desire to succeed with a limited safety net available to them.

Take Pita Hiku for example. He himself has said that he needed to get away from his environment to succeed. He had mates here wanting him to get on the piss all the time. Without moving out of that, he would have been just another could have been good player.

The percentage of māori in NZ prisons is not dissimilar to the percentage of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in Australian prison. I would expect there are similar concerns and issues driving this as well.

In my opinion, a focus on education and lifting productivity is the way forward. Specific policies should be made on low socio economic group rather than on specific ethnicity or race. While historical issues and injustices are obviously a cause, when do they become an excuse rather than a reason for outcomes and an environment for a self fulfilling prophecy? I feel we are near that point now, if not there already. 170,000 māori doing well in Australia would seem to be a very good indicator of that.

nailed it!
get away from that toxic safety net and the worlds your oyster.

 

[marv.]

Keep ignoring facts Frank.

i loved yesterdays SEND FACTS OR IM
GOING TO WATCH THE CRICKET! or whatever it was hahaha that ruled.

 

[juju]

It’s all good. I’m not going to defend the policy too strongly as I don’t feel massively beholden to it. I just don’t feel it is as abhorrent as it characterised. Some of it (eg the equality aspect) is actually pretty reasonable I didn’t even vote Act, so I’m not going to die in a ditch for them

Over time, NZs ethnic mix will change and it is reasonable to want to have a set of laws that are agnostic to race. That’s my view anyway. I’m sure others would differ and I can’t be arsed trying to change that

Anyway, as before, not really going to expend too much energy here on it

Just because NZs ethnic mix may change doesn't mean you can try and ram through a referendum without engaging the actual Treaty Partner. You can't see how people find that abhorrent?

I knew you wouldn't be able to back up the Act PR spin with any substance.