Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Noitall]

Such as? Most people that are opposed to it haven’t even looked at it. They just hate the idea of it (and don’t like Seymour).

Seymour got big numbers in his euthanasia bill. I think it’s more regarding the bill than him personally

 

[defensivebomb]

Seymour got big numbers in his euthanasia bill. I think it’s more regarding the bill than him personally

fair point

although I think if he was proposing anything to do with Maori it would be regarded with distrust

 

[Bay39er]

WHere's wizard of Tauranga when you need him .... to analyse this poll

New poll results show closer fight between Hipkins, Luxon

It follows a poor public poll for the Labour leader.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[juju]

Yes. Unless there is another party that is proposing a treaty principles bill that I am not aware of

No. Everyone is scared to.

But when you look at the three principles, they arent actually that contentious

Such as? Most people that are opposed to it haven’t even looked at it. They just hate the idea of it (and don’t like Seymour).

I can’t think of any intelligent person that has a problem with the Right to Equality principle.

That’s fine. Refinement is part of any legislation process

So your whole view is based on the website of the political party funded to the hilt by nefarious donors?
The party pushing this and gun rights in the middle of a dire recession.

And no academics, politicians, church organisation or anyone with credibility will support this because... they're scared?

Not the principles have been changing?

Or that Seymour didn't engage with the other Treaty Partner at all in the policy. You understand the term TREATY PARTNER?

or not that the bill was found to

* lack policy imperative to justify it's development
* was based on flawed policy rationales
* was novel in its interpretations of the treaty
* was fashioned on a disingenuous historical narrative
* distorted the text of the treaty

Maybe you should look outside the ACT party PR Machine for a view...
Here's some qualified tories willing to chat on it


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srlv21qAA_I

 

[dean]

And no academics, politicians, church organisation or anyone with credibility will support this because... they're scared?

Among the group above I don't think they are awash with credible people.
Why are those more important than the electorate?

 

[defensivebomb]

Among the group above I don't think they are awash with credible people.
Why are those more important than the electorate?

I didn’t even bother to look at the video when I saw Matthew Hooton’s face. Why would anyone place value on a lobbyist’s “opinion”?

 

[juju]

Among the group above I don't think they are awash with credible people.
Why are those more important than the electorate?

If you support the bill - make a public statement in support of it.

Just like the wide array of church leaders, academics etc have in opposition.

The electorate? 8% Act voters you mean?

 

[defensivebomb]

So your whole view is based on the website of the political party funded to the hilt by nefarious donors?

no, not my view. But if I am cutting and pasting a party’s proposed legislation, word for word, to show what the bill’s about am going to do so from straight from published page regarding the bill. I thought I was quite clear that it was straight from the website, and not an expression of my views

Anyway, I have obviously hit a nerve.

I had no idea that the following incendiary proposal by Seymour have such vehement opposition:
All New Zealanders are equal under the law with the same rights and duties

 

[juju]

I didn’t even bother to look at the video when I saw Matthew Hooton’s face. Why would anyone place value on a lobbyist’s “opinion”?

Did your parents really invest money into sending you to private school for you to reply that?

 

[dean]

If you support the bill - make a public statement in support of it.

Just like the wide array of church leaders, academics etc have in opposition.

The electorate? 8% Act voters you mean?

Why would I make a public statement?
I don't hold the group you mentioned in high regard.
I mean the electorate, all eligible voters.

 

[defensivebomb]

Did your parents really invest money into sending you to private school for you to reply that?

Have you been carrying a chip on your shoulder about private schooling your entire life?

 

[juju]

Have you been carrying a chip on your shoulder about private schooling your entire life?

I'm just curious how all that money was spent on your education & that was your reply on the topic of the video

Posting Act Party PR...

Dropping emoji's on differing views...

Do they teach critical thinking at private school? Us poor's will never know.

 

[juju]

no, not my view. But if I am cutting and pasting a party’s proposed legislation, word for word, to show what the bill’s about am going to do so from straight from published page regarding the bill. I thought I was quite clear that it was straight from the website, and not an expression of my views

Anyway, I have obviously hit a nerve.

I had no idea that the following incendiary proposal by Seymour have such vehement opposition:
All New Zealanders are equal under the law with the same rights and duties

The Act Party website is not the actual bill...

Have you read literally anything outside of the Act Party website?

Do you really think posting the benign parts of the PR spin actually make it all better?

Are peoples grasp of the treaty really this bad?

 

[defensivebomb]

Dropping emoji's on differing views...

Do they teach critical thinking at private school? Us poor's will never know.

one of the things that we were taught was to think critically by not posting the opinions of hundreds of religious leaders and lobbyists, and to form our own views on things. And to make it clear when we are pasting from a website, verbatim.

Unfortunately, the above doesn’t appear to have been part of the national curriculum, so you tend to get some confusion when people can’t interpret the difference and rely on “leaders” for their political guidance

 

[defensivebomb]

Anyway, where I went to school has no bearing on this subject matter, so let’s just get back to politics

 

[juju]

View attachment 9594 View attachment 9595View attachment 9596

one of the things that we were taught was to think critically by not posting the opinions of hundreds of religious leaders and lobbyists, and to form our own views on things. And to make it clear when we are pasting from a website, verbatim.

Unfortunately, the above doesn’t appear to have been part of the national curriculum, so you tend to get some confusion when people can’t interpret the difference and rely on “leaders” for their political guidance

Ok how about providing lany sort of reading material oropinion on the topic outside of Act Party PR spin so we can all read the differing view on the forum. Could you even do that?

You realise even just mentioning lobbyists while trying desperately to defend a shoddy Act Party policy is utterly ridiculous right?
That was my point about the emoji - blatantly dismissing a video with the ex National Party Waitangi Negotiator & Hooton because of Hooton is a "lobbyist" all the while defending a shoddy policy by a party up to their eyeballs in lobbyists.

And I get the lecture on critical thinking.

Do they teach civics at private schools?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Māori that leave NZ have a higher IQ?

Maori who leave New Zealand aren't the bottom of the socio economic ladder, as they have both the means and desire to seek better opportunity. This is statistics we are talking. Of course there are less than average IQs leaving and higher than average staying.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

When the outcomes are so disparate depending on which parents you are born too, it definitely does hold true.

I dont understand? Solo father households do better than solo mother households across all races, and soci economic backgrounds. But if you are saying Maori have worse outcomes simply by being Maori then Id want to see it accounted for IQ to be revolutionary

 

[MrFrankWhite]

It’s restricted by role modelling etc as well. The disadvantage that many children are born into, as well as the difficulties in overcoming it, shouldn’t be underestimated.

Thats classed as IQ.

It takes generations to breed out. The Anglo's were afraid of bathing when the Saxons civilized them. Now the English act like they invented civilization

 

[Inruin]

It’s interesting when looking at Māori demographics. In NZ there are more than 800,000 representing 37% of prisoners. In Australia there are over 170,000 Māori, with NZers making up 2% of their prisoners. The UK has around 8000 Māori that aren’t in the top 15 of prisoner ethnicities in that country. What is it in NZ that has these over represented prison rates to Māori?

My take on it is that Maori in NZ are over represented in the lower socio economic group in the country, though not limited to just Maori there either. This is likely because of a mix of historical issues, lack of role models, education, victim mentality, members of that group keeping them down, lack of ambition or drive to better ones self etc. That group would seem to me to be more likely to be committing crimes for a number of various reasons and therefore over representative in crime statistics. Add the problem we have with 501s being deported back here, though I would consider this a fairly low percentage of the problem.

Those who move to Australia seem more wanting to better themselves or their circumstances, remove themselves from their current environment, possibly have more ambition and have achieved a decent level of education. They likely move with a job already lined up. Probably more likely to be driven, focused, less of a victim mentality and a desire to succeed with a limited safety net available to them.

Take Pita Hiku for example. He himself has said that he needed to get away from his environment to succeed. He had mates here wanting him to get on the piss all the time. Without moving out of that, he would have been just another could have been good player.

The percentage of Maori in NZ prisons is not dissimilar to the percentage of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in Australian prison. I would expect there are similar concerns and issues driving this as well.

In my opinion, a focus on education and lifting productivity is the way forward. Specific policies should be made on low socio economic group rather than on specific ethnicity or race. While historical issues and injustices are obviously a cause, when do they become an excuse rather than a reason for outcomes and an environment for a self fulfilling prophecy? I feel we are near that point now, if not there already. 170,000 Maori doing well in Australia would seem to be a very good indicator of that.