Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Noitall]

Why should NZ’ers that sit outside of a specific ethnic group, but with equally significant hurdles to overcome, be excluded from receiving satisfactory state funded healthcare?

Why would they be excluded? All I mentioned was a particular ethnic group being in charge of their own health outcomes. In fact the whole system could probably focus on an individualistic outcome, since many don’t fall into one particular category often

 

[Noitall]

This statement is contradictory. Their outcomes are no longer externally influenced. Its not 1890. They have been in charge of their own outcomes to date.

It’s interesting when looking at Māori demographics. In NZ there are more than 800,000 representing 37% of prisoners. In Australia there are over 170,000 Māori, with NZers making up 2% of their prisoners. The UK has around 8000 Māori that aren’t in the top 15 of prisoner ethnicities in that country. What is it in NZ that has these over represented prison rates to Māori?

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Why would they be excluded? All I mentioned was a particular ethnic group being in charge of their own health outcomes. In fact the whole system could probably focus on an individualistic outcome, since many don’t fall into one particular category often

Excluded on the basis of relative funding vs another more favoured ethnic group.

 

[Noitall]

Excluded on the basis of relative funding vs another more favoured ethnic group.

I’m not sure that funding would be hugely impacted as Māori treatments are often more holistic than those of western medicine if they were to be in control of their destiny as far as health goes. Obviously there would be an initial cost to set up the initiative

 

[juju]

This statement is contradictory. Their outcomes are no longer externally influenced. Its not 1890. They have been in charge of their own outcomes to date.

Yeah Maoris just need to watch some David Goggins clips on Youtube.

 

[juju]

Excluded on the basis of relative funding vs another more favoured ethnic group.

Are you talking prioritised on wait lists? I dont think anybody is being excluded.

There is literally years and years of studies & data on how poorly Maori health outcomes are.
Any decent society should be looking to address this.

 

[defensivebomb]

To avoid any confusion, here are the three principles of the Treaty Principles bill (https://www.treaty.nz/)

The Bill defines the Treaty principles as:

1. Civil Government: The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws. They do so in the best interests of everyone, and in accordance with the rule of law and the maintenance of a free and democratic society.
2. Rights of Hapū and Iwi Māori: The Crown recognises the rights that hapū and iwi had when they signed the Treaty. The Crown will respect and protect those rights. Those rights differ from the rights everyone has a reasonable expectation to enjoy only when they are specified in legislation, Treaty settlements, or other agreement with the Crown.
3. Right to Equality: Everyone is equal before the law and is entitled to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination. Everyone is entitled to the equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights without discrimination.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Are you talking prioritised on wait lists? I dont think anybody is being excluded.

There is literally years and years of studies & data on how poorly Maori health outcomes are.
Any decent society should be looking to address this.

I was only responding to a post that used healthcare as an example of racism. But if we all agree that nobody is being excluded, then Maori’s poor health outcomes must begin with education right?

 

[Noitall]

To avoid any confusion, here are the three principles of the Treaty Principles bill (https://www.treaty.nz/)

The Bill defines the Treaty principles as:

1. Civil Government: The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws. They do so in the best interests of everyone, and in accordance with the rule of law and the maintenance of a free and democratic society.
2. Rights of Hapū and Iwi Māori: The Crown recognises the rights that hapū and iwi had when they signed the Treaty. The Crown will respect and protect those rights. Those rights differ from the rights everyone has a reasonable expectation to enjoy only when they are specified in legislation, Treaty settlements, or other agreement with the Crown.
3. Right to Equality: Everyone is equal before the law and is entitled to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination. Everyone is entitled to the equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights without discrimination.

Māori may feel that government is in breach of principle 1 in that they do so in the best interests of everyone? Maori may feel that their best interests aren’t being met?

 

[juju]

To avoid any confusion, here are the three principles of the Treaty Principles bill (https://www.treaty.nz/)

The Bill defines the Treaty principles as:

1. Civil Government: The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws. They do so in the best interests of everyone, and in accordance with the rule of law and the maintenance of a free and democratic society.
2. Rights of Hapū and Iwi Māori: The Crown recognises the rights that hapū and iwi had when they signed the Treaty. The Crown will respect and protect those rights. Those rights differ from the rights everyone has a reasonable expectation to enjoy only when they are specified in legislation, Treaty settlements, or other agreement with the Crown.
3. Right to Equality: Everyone is equal before the law and is entitled to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination. Everyone is entitled to the equal enjoyment of the same fundamental human rights without discrimination.

A cut and paste the Act website?

Can you name any one with any sort of creditability that backs Seymour on this?

and No... it's actually about quite a lot more than that and been essentially laughed at by experts in the field from every side of politics.

Also "the Rights of Hapu and Iwi" principle was only just added a week ago.

 

[juju]

I was only responding to a post that used healthcare as an example of racism. But if we all agree that nobody is being excluded, then Maori’s poor health outcomes must begin with education right?

All those areas - education, health.
Good societies can pull those levers to address and catch up those outcomes.

To me it's crazy people think it's racism when the differing outcomes are so stark & who colonisation and the treaty worked out for the parties involved.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

It’s interesting when looking at Māori demographics. In NZ there are more than 800,000 representing 37% of prisoners. In Australia there are over 170,000 Māori, with NZers making up 2% of their prisoners. The UK has around 8000 Māori that aren’t in the top 15 of prisoner ethnicities in that country. What is it in NZ that has these over represented prison rates to Māori?

That pool is self selecting. By default the populations overseas will have higher IQ distributions. I dont need to remind you about IQ and crime....

 

[MrFrankWhite]

All those areas - education, health.
Good societies can pull those levers to address and catch up those outcomes.

To me it's crazy people think it's racism when the differing outcomes are so stark & who colonisation and the treaty worked out for the parties involved.

You're are correct historically. But upwards mobility these days is only restricted by IQ, not race. Maori were disadvantaged by being placed in a foreign system without the education required to navigate it. That no longer holds true.

 

[Noitall]

That pool is self selecting. By default the populations overseas will have higher IQ distributions. I dont need to remind you about IQ and crime....

Māori that leave NZ have a higher IQ?

 

[dean]

That pool is self selecting. By default the populations overseas will have higher IQ distributions. I dont need to remind you about IQ and crime....

And Australia simply sends back back foreign criminals.

 

[Bay39er]

That pool is self selecting. By default the populations overseas will have higher IQ distributions. I dont need to remind you about IQ and crime....

Talking about IQ

 

[juju]

You're are correct historically. But upwards mobility these days is only restricted by IQ, not race. Maori were disadvantaged by being placed in a foreign system without the education required to navigate it. That no longer holds true.

When the outcomes are so disparate depending on which parents you are born too, it definitely does hold true.
Of course it's not impossible to escape the statistics but the data overall paints a pretty bleak picture.

It's the generational inequality that needs to be address to even it all up.

There shouldn't be the resistance to a society trying to address this.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

You're are correct historically. But upwards mobility these days is only restricted by IQ, not race. Maori were disadvantaged by being placed in a foreign system without the education required to navigate it. That no longer holds true.

It’s restricted by role modelling etc as well. The disadvantage that many children are born into, as well as the difficulties in overcoming it, shouldn’t be underestimated.

 

[defensivebomb]

A cut and paste the Act website?

Yes. Unless there is another party that is proposing a treaty principles bill that I am not aware of

Can you name any one with any sort of creditability that backs Seymour on this?

No. Everyone is scared to.

But when you look at the three principles, they arent actually that contentious

and No... it's actually about quite a lot more than that and been essentially laughed at by experts in the field from every side of politics.

Such as? Most people that are opposed to it haven’t even looked at it. They just hate the idea of it (and don’t like Seymour).

I can’t think of any intelligent person that has a problem with the Right to Equality principle.

Also "the Rights of Hapu and Iwi" principle was only just added a week ago.

That’s fine. Refinement is part of any legislation process

 

[Noitall]

It’s restricted by role modelling etc as well. The disadvantage that many children are born into, as well as the difficulties in overcoming it, shouldn’t be underestimated.

I’ve got a good mate, european chap who’s been in and out of facilities most of his life. Started in borstals and progressed to prison learning much more off the worse ones than him, which is why he doesn’t see prison as a solution. Family was apart of the grim reapers to which this guy found a different direction. I see a lot of value in people like this having an influence that the cycle can be broken