Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[juju]

I agree. It was a resounding vote of no confidence in Labour

A resounding vote of no confidence in Labour is very different to voting out the political elite and installing a National / Act government.

The theory of the Political Elite refers to economic elite and policy planning networks.

 

[Rick O’Shay]

Parliament is a cringing vassal of the executive wearing a cloak of democratic artifice. It is little more than a talk-shop, a gab-fest, where politicians lurch in and out of chamber, on their way to more exacting and important tasks. Not only does a routine parliamentary session resemble feeding time at the zoo, but Government Ministers contemptuously dismiss the legislature as an annoying irrelevance.

'It is the arrogance of politicians which most infuriates the public. Not only are they excluded from decision-making, but they are treated as infantile fledglings unable to make decisions for themselves. Democracy is a concept that finds little support among politicians, even though they are dependent on it, and they resist it between elections.

'Any solution to this crisis of public confidence involves politicians sharing their power with the people. Politicians have to divest themselves of their obsessive belief that only they have the combination of intellectual will, moral fibre and access to the facts to be able to make decisions,”

Winston Peters 1990

 

[juju]

What's the number of total votes (including specials) from this Election compared to 2020? I suspect it's lower but by how many?

2.9m in 2020
2.2m in 2023

 

[juju]

2.9m in 2020
2.2m in 2023

60k more special votes this election

 

[miket12]

2.9m in 2020
2.2m in 2023

Is that 2.2 in 2023 including the specials or only the votes from Saturday because that's an estimated 567,000 votes according to some of the media reports? Considering that historically that's favoured the left, that could make a large difference.

 

[miket12]

Interesting that Brian Tamaki's prediction of Freedoms NZ getting over 20% of the Party Vote didn't happen when they won just over 0.3% of the vote. Better still, the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party did better than them with 0.4%. How sad.... too bad.... never mind!!!!

I do, however, feel sorry for Density Church members who had some of their money wasted on this.

 

[Noitall]

Parliament is a cringing vassal of the executive wearing a cloak of democratic artifice. It is little more than a talk-shop, a gab-fest, where politicians lurch in and out of chamber, on their way to more exacting and important tasks. Not only does a routine parliamentary session resemble feeding time at the zoo, but Government Ministers contemptuously dismiss the legislature as an annoying irrelevance.

'It is the arrogance of politicians which most infuriates the public. Not only are they excluded from decision-making, but they are treated as infantile fledglings unable to make decisions for themselves. Democracy is a concept that finds little support among politicians, even though they are dependent on it, and they resist it between elections.

'Any solution to this crisis of public confidence involves politicians sharing their power with the people. Politicians have to divest themselves of their obsessive belief that only they have the combination of intellectual will, moral fibre and access to the facts to be able to make decisions,”

Winston Peters 1990

When I think of the two referendums offered up in recent times by both parties, I could never see the national party treating the public as grown up enough to offer cannabis legislation change. Even if it passed, which it was a whisker away from, I could never see national let it happen with opposition for the numbers it would have needed to run through the house which I always thought would have painted national in a negative light for not respecting public sentiment. On the flip side I thought the flag referendum was something there was no appetite for change and descended into a glorified colouring in contest. It’s a shame Winston needs all the theatrics because I totally agree with his statement you posted.

 

[PullingTeets]

What a truly stupid assumption to take from the election results....

Do you actually know what the theory of the politic elite actually is?
Maybe go look that up and give yourself an uppercut.

The result wasn't even that much of a rout - 1.2m votes right to 850k votes left - with a low turn out.

You're really on a tear for stupid posts at the moment.

Haha yeah, I sit there stunned when ACT and NZF go on about getting rid of the Maori political elite and their deciples lap it up.
The leaders of those two political parties are literally two of the political Maori elite FFS.
People are so fucking stupid.

 

[Noitall]

Is that 2.2 in 2023 including the specials or only the votes from Saturday because that's an estimated 567,000 votes according to some of the media reports? Considering that historically that's favoured the left, that could make a large difference.

Not sure this will be the case this time. There could be many unhappy with not being allowed home as they felt through covid.

 

[Noitall]

I do, however, feel sorry for Density Church members who had some of their money wasted on this.

If there’s some amongst them with a decent attitude I do, but all those that follow bishop tamaki’s nasty views I couldn’t give a shit about.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Not to sound like Liz Gunn, but what are we going to do about the elite 0.01% rapidly accumulating 90% of the global wealth while the 1% (us) live relatively comfortably exploiting the other 98.99%?

Heard that the other day, anyone know if those stats are real?

It is very much a thing.

My personal thesis is;

The Musical Chair Economy

While the music is playing and everyone is dancing (making money) everything is great, and then the music stops and everyone rushes to chair. This music stopping is some sort of crisis, oil price, power, food, housing whatever. Now if you have enough money, you get a seat and the game continues. If you miss you chair, lets say you get sick or divorce, or drugs, no you don't have a chair so you are out of the game (suicide, homelessness etc)

Everyone laughs cos the game is fun, and we continue to play without a thought for those who have lost.

The chairs are capital and if you aren't racing to collect as much as possible before the music stops, you are losing.

 

[juju]

Is that 2.2 in 2023 including the specials or only the votes from Saturday because that's an estimated 567,000 votes according to some of the media reports? Considering that historically that's favoured the left, that could make a large difference.

Yup both total vote count

 

[Noitall]

It is very much a thing.

My personal thesis is;

The Musical Chair Economy

While the music is playing and everyone is dancing (making money) everything is great, and then the music stops and everyone rushes to chair. This music stopping is some sort of crisis, oil price, power, food, housing whatever. Now if you have enough money, you get a seat and the game continues. If you miss you chair, lets say you get sick or divorce, or drugs, no you don't have a chair so you are out of the game (suicide, homelessness etc)

Everyone laughs cos the game is fun, and we continue to play without a thought for those who have lost.

The chairs are capital and if you aren't racing to collect as much as possible before the music stops, you are losing.

Politics. It’s a sick game.

 

[Inruin]

‘Jacinda was ready to sell her grandmother': What drives Winston Peters’ coalition negotiations

Inside NZ First coalition talks and lessons insiders say Christopher Luxon needs to learn.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[Warriorsfan92]

voting is fundamentally selfish in nature imo. What policies will benefit me? In a state of a crumbling economy, high inflation, high interest rates & a cost of living crisis, this selfishness is heightened. We’ve had 6 years of welfare, state house building, second chance for criminals & light sentences. How has that served us? Crime is out of control, essential foods are up 15%, our health system & infrastructure is cracking (literally) & we have gone backwards as a society & more divisive than I can remember. Labour had to contend with some bad weather & a pandemic.

But the pandemic cannot be blamed for the RNZ merger, light rail, 3 waters, te pukenga merger & a continual waste of money for consultants deciding on projects no one wants or needs. National are traditionally the party that focusses on spending cuts, education, infrastructure & rebuilding an economy. It makes logical sense that labour were ousted, given the predicament we find ourselves in. Labour have had the chance to right wrongs, and have allocated spending in the wrong areas.

I know I will get burnt for saying this, but again, this vote was for me. I have a large student loan, I work my ass off, and I’m sick of being in the crunched middle. You should be rewarded for contributing to society & increasing the GDP. This is not an attack on the ‘poor’, because the poor haven’t exactly been looked after under labour. Inflation and cost of living disproportionally affects the poor, and we need to get out of this. We need to encourage people to go after it, dangle the carrot that through self improvement & getting after it, you too can be successful.

I don’t come from a wealthy background. But I don’t agree with endless handouts & the soft on crime approach. I’ve lived in Auckland for 5 years, we’ve endured multiple lockdowns, unfair fuel taxes, rapidly increasing crime & a failure of public transport.

Labour were ousted more than anything. But we truely can’t do any worse. National have a task on their hands, but I’m far more comfortable with them in control. I don’t expect massive changes for months/years, but I’m happy someone else will be given an opportunity.

 

[miket12]

It is very much a thing.

My personal thesis is;

The Musical Chair Economy

While the music is playing and everyone is dancing (making money) everything is great, and then the music stops and everyone rushes to chair. This music stopping is some sort of crisis, oil price, power, food, housing whatever. Now if you have enough money, you get a seat and the game continues. If you miss you chair, lets say you get sick or divorce, or drugs, no you don't have a chair so you are out of the game (suicide, homelessness etc)

Everyone laughs cos the game is fun, and we continue to play without a thought for those who have lost.

The chairs are capital and if you aren't racing to collect as much as possible before the music stops, you are losing.

I do think some form of "wealth tax" is required (even in the way of a gifting or inheritance tax) I just think the thresholds which were proposed by the Māori Party and the Greens in their policies was too low. There's a difference between targeting 1% and targeting 10%. I think if they broadened their targets, it would be far more palatable to the voting public.... instead, it's basically targeting anyone with a mortgage free house in a middle suburb in Auckland who either runs a successful small business and has a descent amount saved for retirement.

The other thing is that their aim was poverty reduction but what was glaringly missing in their policy was there was no method in how this was going to be achieved i.e. were benefits, schooling and health budgets going to rise using that money or was it just going into the consolidated fund. It's okay to talk about wealth distribution but if the money raised isn't bringing people out of poverty, then it's not helping them.

 

[miket12]

Yup both total vote count

Sorry, but I think you might be wrong. Looking at the official figures from the last election, there was just over 2,885,000 votes cast including the specials. This year, there was 2,244,000 cast on Saturday night plus an estimated 560,000 still to be counted. That's an estimated difference of 81,000, not 640,000 using your figures of 2.9m (2020) less 2.2m + 60,000 (2023 vote plus specials).

2020 General Election official results

The Electoral Commission has declared the official results for the 2020 General Election and referendums.

elections.nz

Preliminary results for the 2023 General Election

The Electoral Commission has released the preliminary results for the 2023 General Election.

elections.nz

 

[PullingTeets]

voting is fundamentally selfish in nature imo. What policies will benefit me? In a state of a crumbling economy, high inflation, high interest rates & a cost of living crisis, this selfishness is heightened. We’ve had 6 years of welfare, state house building, second chance for criminals & light sentences. How has that served us? Crime is out of control, essential foods are up 15%, our health system & infrastructure is cracking (literally) & we have gone backwards as a society & more divisive than I can remember. Labour had to contend with some bad weather & a pandemic.

But the pandemic cannot be blamed for the RNZ merger, light rail, 3 waters, te pukenga merger & a continual waste of money for consultants deciding on projects no one wants or needs. National are traditionally the party that focusses on spending cuts, education, infrastructure & rebuilding an economy. It makes logical sense that labour were ousted, given the predicament we find ourselves in. Labour have had the chance to right wrongs, and have allocated spending in the wrong areas.

I know I will get burnt for saying this, but again, this vote was for me. I have a large student loan, I work my ass off, and I’m sick of being in the crunched middle. You should be rewarded for contributing to society & increasing the GDP. This is not an attack on the ‘poor’, because the poor haven’t exactly been looked after under labour. Inflation and cost of living disproportionally affects the poor, and we need to get out of this. We need to encourage people to go after it, dangle the carrot that through self improvement & getting after it, you too can be successful.

I don’t come from a wealthy background. But I don’t agree with endless handouts & the soft on crime approach. I’ve lived in Auckland for 5 years, we’ve endured multiple lockdowns, unfair fuel taxes, rapidly increasing crime & a failure of public transport.

Labour were ousted more than anything. But we truely can’t do any worse. National have a task on their hands, but I’m far more comfortable with them in control. I don’t expect massive changes for months/years, but I’m happy someone else will be given an opportunity.

Do you mind mes asking how old you are mate, because you pretty much described 9 years under National/ACT

 

[Warriorsfan92]

I do think some form of "wealth tax" is required (even in the way of a gifting or inheritance tax) I just think the thresholds which were proposed by the Māori Party and the Greens in their policies was too low. There's a difference between targeting 1% and targeting 10%. I think if they broadened their targets, it would be far more palatable to the voting public.... instead, it's basically targeting anyone with a mortgage free house in a middle suburb in Auckland who either runs a successful small business and has a descent amount saved for retirement.

The other thing is that their aim was poverty reduction but what was glaringly missing in their policy was there was no method in how this was going to be achieved i.e. were benefits, schooling and health budgets going to rise using that money or was it just going into the consolidated fund. It's okay to talk about wealth distribution but if the money raised isn't bringing people out of poverty, then it's not helping them.

I don’t Think many would have an issue with a wealth tax focussed on the top 1%. It makes logical sense. But how was that money going to be spent? If it was going to be spent to improve healthcare outcomes for all, better roading, improved outcomes in education etc then absolutely. But a Robin Hood approach of taking from the rich & giving to the poor is a dangerous precedent, flirting with elements of communism. I think we need to be careful with disincentivising chasing wealth & success, this has never worked anywhere. But I do think a distribution of the wealth held by the 1%, to improve society as a whole is a sound idea.

 

[defensivebomb]

Not sure this will be the case this time. There could be many unhappy with not being allowed home as they felt through covid.

It's interesting eh. I think in a normal election year, you get a lot of left-leaning special votes as it is easy to vote for a green / progressive system when you don't have to pay for it. A lot of expat Kiwis take pride in NZ being clean and green and subconsiously this works into their identity

This time around, the overseas vote (as you say) could be quite different. It might also have more than a few people that have left NZ recently, dissatisfied.

My guess is the the special votes will:

1. have a lower proportion of NZ First voters, as they don't have Winston on the airwaves, weaseling his way into their psyche
2. have a lower proportion of Labour votes (and here I am thinking of close electorates like Mt Albert & Te Atatu potentially reducing the Labour majority there), and
3. have higher proportion of Green votes (as my point above), and
4. have higher proportion of National votes (disgruntled expats)

Nothing solid to base this on. Just a gut feel