Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Inruin]

Not really. Media will run with the negative headline and national isn’t alone in that regard in receiving it. Ardern received strong criticism for not lifting the children out of hardship that she pledged, just the same Luxon will be held to what he said he would achieve. In this instance it’s fodder for media that he isn’t achieving what he said he would. I noticed the morning after the q and an interview that he continued with the what I would just say to you line that’s now become noticeable after it pointed out. He and the coalition have some work to do to regain the support they were having. I think he really needs to take a stance in the treaty principles bill. If he supports it he’ll get the support of those that support it, if he doesn’t he needs to end it now and run with it was a coalition obligation that he had to act and it’s not getting the support you’d hope to see if there was strong public support

This is the point though. He is doing what he said in this instance. Several youth offenders have left with jobs lined up. One reoffends. I agree that the headline is negative and reinforces an inaccurate perception that these camps don't work when in the same article it says they do. Several successes versus one reoffending when the likelihood is all would have without in this case the camp intervention.

It appears to have made a difference in a few of these kids lives. Surely that is more worthy of reporting. But you are right, the negative headline gets the clicks. That's all it does though. It doesn't make the camps a failure.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

You seem to have a keen eye for numbers, surely the noted failures of these boot camps worldwide would have been a concern prior?

100%. But have any of us really looked into it outside of those headlines? What is and what isn’t a failure?

Abuse is always an issue, but even as NZ saw, that’s a result of institutional failures, not boot camps, psych wards, or jails by nature.

 

[Damo]

$100k per person isn’t it?

Boot camps could cost $100,000 per teen

The Oranga Tamariki-run pilot starts at the end of the month,

www.nzherald.co.nz

No, 400k according to Nationals own document I linked. Here if you missed it:

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/17862/attachments/original/1684306248/CYO.pdf?1684306248

 

[Damo]

100%. But have any of us really looked into it outside of those headlines? What is and what isn’t a failure?

Abuse is always an issue, but even as NZ saw, that’s a result of institutional failures, not boot camps, psych wards, or jails by nature.

Reconviction rate? It was 92% from the "corrective training" style camps of the 80s and 90s.
80% from the military style camp program from 2010. Linked here

The optimist in me thinks times have changed since then, especially noting the 9 month mentorship and guidance piece after the initial 3 months of "scared straight" style camp. I hope for these kids sake it is different.

 

[Inruin]

Reconviction rate? It was 92% from the "corrective training" style camps of the 80s and 90s.
80% from the military style camp program from 2010. Linked here

The optimist in me thinks times have changed since then, especially noting the 9 month mentorship and guidance piece after the initial 3 months of "scared straight" style camp. I hope for these kids sake it is different.

I hope it has some success. Seems like the opposition don't want to give it a chance at all and the government think it has merit. I'm in the camp of I don't know if it will work but it's worth a go and youth crime was out of control in previous years. Looking at what they do it doesn't seem like a scared straight type program. It looks more like take them out of their current environment and provide some structure and education to their lives. And while they maybe youths they are doing adult crimes. Aren't these the worst of youth offenders? I'm not sure that calling them kids is appropriate in many cases.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Reconviction rate? It was 92% from the "corrective training" style camps of the 80s and 90s.
80% from the military style camp program from 2010. Linked here

The optimist in me thinks times have changed since then, especially noting the 9 month mentorship and guidance piece after the initial 3 months of "scared straight" style camp. I hope for these kids sake it is different.

Lifetime adult offenders are extremely costly both in $$ and the toll on society and so can be break even at low rates of reduced repeat offending. But learning lessons from past failures is key to stopping the cycle, it just needs time to embed. these programs are generational.

 

[defensivebomb]

Isn't it intriguing that the headline was youth just out of boot camp reoffends and wasnt several kids successfully leave with jobs lined up.

A slightly more positive headline would be -

“ex-Bootcamp attendee guaranteed not to reoffend”

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I think some of you are taking to narrow a view of the boot camps.

Jail works not only because of the people in there but the deterrent to the rest of us because we don’t want to be there.

The boot camps are also a deterrent so a measure of its success is also how much youth crime drops because of a ‘tough’ approach.

What’s the youth crime stats doing? Have they decrease…. YES! That seems to be part of the success to me with the boot camps part of an overall successful package.

 

[Damo]

I think some of you are taking to narrow a view of the boot camps.

Jail works not only because of the people in there but the deterrent to the rest of us because we don’t want to be there.

The boot camps are also a deterrent so a measure of its success is also how much youth crime drops because of a ‘tough’ approach.

What’s the youth crime stats doing? Have they decrease…. YES! That seems to be part of the success to me with the boot camps part of an overall successful package.

The bootcamp program hasn't even finished with the first 10 people mate, surely you cannot correlate this.

Where are the statistics that youth crime dropping is due to this "deterrent".

If anything the youth crime was a fad that seems to have died out.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

The bootcamp program hasn't even finished with the first 10 people mate, surely you realise they are not related

Haven’t they been written off by some without even finishing

That seems to be part of the success to me with the boot camps part of an overall successful package.

So there is no allowances for boot camps as a deterrent factor? Surely the police will have been warning the worst offenders for the past 6 months that this is where your heading if you don’t change?

 

[Damo]

Haven’t they been written off by some without even finishing

So there is no allowances for boot camps as a deterrent factor? Surely the police will have been warning the worst offenders for the past 6 months that this is where your heading if you don’t change?

That is irrelevant to my question?

Possibly, but we are just guessing right. These boot camps can only take 60 people a year if this 10 person pilot is successful.

 

[defensivebomb]

I don’t know about you guys, but if I was spiralling out of control with crime, drugs and at risk of heading into the big house later in life, I’d jump at the chance of attending bootcamp so I could change direction

 

[Damo]

I don’t know about you guys, but if I was spiralling out of control with crime, drugs and at risk of heading into the big house later in life, I’d jump at the chance of attending bootcamp so I could change direction

If only most teenagers were capable of this level of rational thought

 

[Inruin]

If only most teenagers were capable of this level of rational thought

Particularly if coming from an environment that has had little structure, control or consequences of note.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

I spent time in a couple of juvenile homes. Wasnt until a cop down in Dunedin took me for a ride and showed me all the places I'd committed crimes that they hadn't arrested me for. Showed me when the guys Id been hanging with (Mangu Kaha) had committed crimes. Told me to commit to being a gang member and the jail life or walk away.

I was 15, walked and never looked back.

 

[John Nick]

I spent time in a couple of juvenile homes. Wasnt until a cop down in Dunedin took me for a ride and showed me all the places I'd committed crimes that they hadn't arrested me for. Showed me when the guys Id been hanging with (Mangu Kaha) had committed crimes. Told me to commit to being a gang member and the jail life or walk away.

I was 15, walked and never looked back.

Did you have a good home upbringing?
The reason I ask is for me my upbringing was great but too strict. EG I wasn't even allowed to have jeans.
Bit OTT for me at 15 so I went off to sea.
Was a shock for a few months but I loved it.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Did you have a good home upbringing?
The reason I ask is for me my upbringing was great but too strict. EG I wasn't even allowed to have jeans.
Bit OTT for me at 15 so I went off to sea.
Was a shock for a few months but I loved it.

Yes but single mother so went looking for male role models.

 

[John Nick]

Yes but single mother so went looking for male role models.

I sometimes wonder if Compulsory Military Training would help.
We were shits in our day but at least we had respect for the older people

 

[Noitall]

I sometimes wonder if Compulsory Military Training would help.
We were shits in our day but at least we had respect for the older people

I’ve always been taught to respect elders, but some don’t deserve respect. I think you should always treat someone you’ve just met with respect but apart from you either lose it or earn it to me

 

[John Nick]

I’ve always been taught to respect elders, but some don’t deserve respect. I think you should always treat someone you’ve just met with respect but apart from you either lose it or earn it to me

Couldn't agree more