Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Noitall]

You think farmers decimated and wiped out by a cyclone is in anyway similar to thriving, rich farmers wanting to grow their business on huge amounts of free govt cash simply because they are Maori?

The decimated farmers get less because some of it’s going to these freeloaders wanting a free ride to make even more money?

Us and them. Pork barrel politics.

Think you’ll find its investment into what looks to be a business ready to have good results and head into different markets as proposed. Reads like a good investment by government with zespri not prepared to contribute.

 

[Noitall]

Maybe I’m being harsh… it’s not like the govts broke, our schools, hospitals and roads are falling apart apart, etc. We’ve got heaps of money to give away for rich Maori business owners pet projects…

Doesn’t seem hard to fathom that a portion of the $26 million allocated went to this business, just as the remainder went to other businesses.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Think you’ll find its investment into what looks to be a business ready to have good results and head into different markets as proposed. Reads like a good investment by government with zespri not prepared to contribute.

Industry expert that knows the market doesn’t back it.

Favoured group gets huuuuge illogical handout.

Report back in 5 years and I guarantee all the moneys gone and they aren’t in the market anymore.

 

[Noitall]

Industry expert that knows the market doesn’t back it.

Favoured group gets huuuuge illogical handout.

Report back in 5 years and I guarantee all the moneys gone and they aren’t in the market anymore.

That’s a fairly pessimistic view, I’ve done work around a kiwi fruit orchard called punch bowl that is run by zespri and I can tell you first hand they leave much to be desired. There are plenty of successful Maori businesses and plenty of tribes have invested well with settlement money, Maori tv is world class. There are negative stories if you want to go looking but it’s not hard to find positive ones either.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Industry expert that knows the market doesn’t back it.

Favoured group gets huuuuge illogical handout.

Report back in 5 years and I guarantee all the moneys gone and they aren’t in the market anymore.

Climate industry in a nutshell

 

[defensivebomb]

Just so we're clear:
Do I think that big tobacco have directly influenced policy in this current government? Yes I do, that is my opinion
Do I think that the two main parties on the right have a disproportionate level of donations and funding from source of the right and far right persuasion? Yes I do - here's 2022 from the electoral commission and I'd bet that 2023 is far more disproportionate - https://elections.nz/democracy-in-n...ew-zealand/party-donations-and-loans-by-year/

Do I think that that funding is provided with the expectation of affecting and distorting policy towards those donors and their organisations? Yes I do, that is my opinion

Do I think that the left is immune from this somehow? No I don't, but there is far more transparency within that political spectrum at the moment

Do I think that right wing so called thinktanks and right wing networks have far too much influence and impact on our democracy to the detriment of all New Zealanders? Yes I do, 100% that is my opinion. And there's much evidence around 40 years of neoliberalism to back that up

One of the main group of talking heads in this country on mainstream and right networks (nzme, the platform) is the New Zealand Initiative. They are a rebranded Business Roundtable, which was a huge and corrupting influence in the 80s and 90s, particularly with the implementation of neoliberal policies, rampant deregulation and asset sales.

Another group that gets readily unquestionably quoted is the Taxpayers Union - also members of the Atlas network, as outlined elsewhere in these pages.

The New Zealand Initiative is also part of the Atlas Network - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Initiative

These groups do not have New Zealand's best interests at heart. They never have, and they never will. That is also my opinion. And it's pretty fact based too.

I’d agree that a lot of that makes sense. It can be perceived as a conflict of interest, having links with tobacco companies etc.

Where I draw the line is calling it corruption. Which would be the govt doing something illegal and there are plenty of warnings on this thread, that people get pulled up on. So if you are saying something illegal has occurred, specify exactly what the charges are.

Otherise, what we are looking at is a perceived conflict of interest, which deserves explanation from the govt, potentially some sort of investigation. But if it was actual corruption as you say, there should be police involved. If that’s the case, specific charges need to be levelled at the govt rather than a blanket “the government is corrupt” statement

 

[MaybeTop8]

I’d agree that a lot of that makes sense. It can be perceived as a conflict of interest, having links with tobacco companies etc.

Where I draw the line is calling it corruption. Which would be the govt doing something illegal and there are plenty of warnings on this thread, that people get pulled up on. So if you are saying something illegal has occurred, specify exactly what the charges are.

Otherise, what we are looking at is a perceived conflict of interest, which deserves explanation from the govt, potentially some sort of investigation. But if it was actual corruption as you say, there should be police involved. If that’s the case, specific charges need to be levelled at the govt rather than a blanket “the government is corrupt” statement

Fair enough - what do you call it when people are able to buy policy though? That's not how we want our democracy to work, well I certainly don't.

 

[defensivebomb]

Fair enough - what do you call it when people are able to buy policy though? That's not how we want our democracy to work, well I certainly don't.

Good question. I don’t know!

I get the links and suspicions though. The pro-smoking stance is a bit weird and not requested by the electorate.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Gee that's a long way of saying it's just your opinion and there is no current proof. And then throwing out barbs at others as if it's fact.

In my opinion (there you go mate). There is influence on all parties, whether you want to extend that to being corruption is up to you. In terms of international rankings we are seen as one of the top least corrupt countries in the world. So given that I tend to lean toward the least incompetent bunch which given the last 15 or so years happens to be the 'right' side.

Even the article on the treasury report you posted and cherry picked the CGT (while seemingly ignoring the rest) from was damning of the last government:

It said, while New Zealand’s debt was low by international standards, it had risen significantly over recent years and current spending exceeded revenues.

“A substantial fiscal consolidation is required to bring revenue and expenses back into balance and support fiscal sustainability, while also supporting monetary policy to bring inflation back into the target range.”

It said the Government should prioritise a return to surplus in the 2026/2027 year at the latest.
That would mean constraining new spending, reducing current spending and increasing revenue, it said.
That should happen alongside measures to lift growth, resilience and living standards.
It said New Zealand had recovered strongly from Covid-19 but the Government had incurred debt at a faster rate than most other countries.

“Between 2019 and 2023, the IMF estimates that New Zealand’s government net debt increased by 18% of GDP, compared with a 4% increase for the average advanced economy. The fiscal impacts of the North Island weather events has added to debt in 2023 and will continue to do so over coming years.”


So, all the things this coalition us trying to do and you are going on previously about National cutting this and that, they are bad etc etc. the treasury has made it quite clear it's needed. The previous lot have done very few good things, made it it demonstrably worse for nearly everyone and significantly worse for the poor and absolutely no ideas on how to move forward out of it. Yet the current government is being attacked for a 'war on the poor'? Unfortunately tough decisions need to be made. It looks to me like at least this government is making them.

As far as the shop lifter taking responsibility for her actions. When did she do that? Certainly not until it was clear she had to or was made to. And even then it was with the mental health proviso added to it.

Treasury didn't make it clear we needed to be taken into war footing. Treasury didn't ask the coalition to cut anti smoking measures and give big tobacco a tax break. Treasury certainly didn't recommend a tax cut for the rich that the country can't afford. Pretty certain they didn't recommend promoting oil and gas over renewables.

 

[Inruin]

Treasury didn't make it clear we needed to be taken into war footing. Treasury didn't ask the coalition to cut anti smoking measures and give big tobacco a tax break. Treasury certainly didn't recommend a tax break for the rich that the country can't afford. Pretty certain they didn't recommend promoting oil and gas over renewables.

No they didn't. It's not in their remit. So what's your point?

 

[miket12]

Treasury didn't make it clear we needed to be taken into war footing. Treasury didn't ask the coalition to cut anti smoking measures and give big tobacco a tax break. Treasury certainly didn't recommend a tax break for the rich that the country can't afford. Pretty certain they didn't recommend promoting oil and gas over renewables.

Please explain what you mean by a tax break. Adjusting the tax brackets? Changing the Brightline test? Or allowing landlords to claim interest?

 

[MaybeTop8]

Please explain what you mean by a tax break. Adjusting the tax brackets? Changing the Brightline test? Or allowing landlords to claim interest?

Incorrect wording, you're right I'll adjust - tax cut. But yeah, throw the landlords in there as well.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Treasury didn't make it clear we needed to be taken into war footing. Treasury didn't ask the coalition to cut anti smoking measures and give big tobacco a tax break. Treasury certainly didn't recommend a tax cut for the rich that the country can't afford. Pretty certain they didn't recommend promoting oil and gas over renewables.

Did treasury recommend banning exploration or was it an ideological captains call?

 

[miket12]

Incorrect wording, you're right I'll adjust - tax cut. But yeah, throw the landlords in there as well.

There’s a 36 page Treasury document prepared for the previous Government explaining four different scenarios about the removal of landlords ability to claim interest. Two of them would have led to higher rents…. one of those was what the government went for. BTW, the IRD and the Ministry of Housing recommended the Labour government didn‘t change the rules but their recommendations were rejected.

Here‘s a bit of fun reading for you for a Sunday afternoon.

https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-10/ria-ird-lidrip-sep21.pdf

 

[Rick O’Shay]

Did treasury recommend banning exploration or was it an ideological captains call?

Captain's call in 2018 to look good in Paris when she flew out a few days later. No consultation with anyone and even cabinet was uninformed. Treasury at the time was also unimpressed. Transition was joke.

In the 5 years since, our gas reserves have continued to decline but there has been no corresponding increase in capacity from renewables, the peaking issue still remains a stumbling block.

Anyone who thinks that we can ever sustain or improve our electricity supply in this country solely from solar/wind/geo should put on the white suit and commit themselves now.

#buildmorenukes

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Captain's call in 2018 to look good in Paris when she flew out a few days later. No consultation with anyone and even cabinet was uninformed. Treasury at the time was also unimpressed. Transition was joke.

In the 5 years since, our gas reserves have continued to decline but there has been no corresponding increase in capacity from renewables, the peaking issue still remains a stumbling block.

Anyone who thinks that we can ever sustain or improve our electricity supply in this country solely from solar/wind/geo should put on the white suit and commit themselves now.

#buildmorenukes

NZ is one of like 5 countries that has a tiny population, legacy hydro and w+s. It’ll work there until your population hits a certain point.

But removing peaking gas simultaneously is stupid.

 

[Worried2Death]

How soon can we get nuke power plants installed and generating, and is there any realistic chance of it happening?

 

[Worried2Death]

The illogical organised action against Posie Parker who no one in NZ had ever heard of is an outside international left example.

Don't really want to bring this up again, but since you did, the "International left" didn't start the action, she'd just come from aussie on an alt-right agitation tour with literal neo-nazis marching around in support. The trans community were pushing back, and Posie got to play the victim so I suppose she won.
Agree with most of your post apart from that example though.

 

[Mr Drag]

Don't really want to bring this up again, but since you did, the "International left" didn't start the action, she'd just come from aussie on an alt-right agitation tour with literal neo-nazis marching around in support. The trans community were pushing back, and Posie got to play the victim so I suppose she won.
Agree with most of your post apart from that example though.

Half the Victoria Police in the 70's were neo-nazis and the other half hated Maori!

 

[Worried2Death]

Half the Victoria Police in the 70's were neo-nazis and the other half hated Maori!

Since when is it wrong to punch a nazi? My grandad spent 3 years murdering the bastards.