NRL Potential Rookie Draft in the NRL

[wizard of Tauranga]

in fact the draft encourages bad teams to be worse.

This is a valid issue. But doesn’t the salary cap also have unwanted outcomes? Ie stops a lowly team investing heavily to buy themselves out of a hole?

With the cap ‘evening teams up’ the only way to rise is through building a strong roster either by being a sought after destination club or having a solid junior pathway. If you have neither, what other options do you have to turn your fortune around?

3 votes for yes on the poll but no real indication of what the problem having a draft would solve and how it would actually do that.

The problem identified by the NRL is teams stuck at the top and bottom of the ladder and the worry that with more teams it will make it worse. There is a clear need to spread talent around and stop it pooling at the favoured teams.

‘Players won’t want to go to PNG’ - well maybe in a professional sport, playing talent MUST to be spread around for the good of the game
instead of pooling for a lower pay at Melbourne and the Roosters.

Maybe a draft isn’t the answer but they are right to be looking at solutions, which to give V’Landys his dues, he’s not afraid to shake things up for the good of the game.

 

[Inruin]

This is a valid issue. But doesn’t the salary cap also have unwanted outcomes? Ie stops a lowly team investing heavily to buy themselves out of a hole?

With the cap ‘evening teams up’ the only way to rise is through building a strong roster either by being a sought after destination club or having a solid junior pathway. If you have neither, what other options do you have to turn your fortune around?

The problem identified by the NRL is teams stuck at the top and bottom of the ladder and the worry that with more teams it will make it worse. There is a clear need to spread talent around and stop it pooling at the favoured teams.

‘Players won’t want to go to PNG’ - well maybe in a professional sport, playing talent MUST to be spread around for the good of the game
instead of pooling for a lower pay at Melbourne and the Roosters.

Maybe a draft isn’t the answer but they are right to be looking at solutions, which to give V’Landys his dues, he’s not afraid to shake things up for the good of the game.

Yes, and as I have said, it's no surprise that the clubs at the top are ones that are run well and have had stability for a long period. The one at the bottom is the complete opposite of that. A draft is ill conceived and not going to address the problem. And mt.wellington has summed it up nicely in the post previously.

In the last 10 seasons you have had 10 teams contesting the Grand final. The last 4 years the Panthers have dominated the result but there have still been 4 different teams contesting.

 

[John Nick]

Yes, and as I have said, it's no surprise that the clubs at the top are ones that are run well and have had stability for a long period. The one at the bottom is the complete opposite of that. A draft is ill conceived and not going to address the problem. And mt.wellington has summed it up nicely in the post previously.

In the last 10 seasons you gave had 10 teams contesting the Grand final. The last 4 years the Panthers have dominated the result but there have still been 4 different teams contesting.

Regardless of any of our opinions it's a conversation that has to be had.
One of the most listened to people in our game is Gus and he is in favor of a draft of some kind.
You can guarantee he will be heard like him or loathe him

A major problem to get a draft is the court findings in a previous NSWRL case of a prominent player would have to be overcome .As I understand

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

In the last 10 seasons you have had 10 teams contesting the Grand final. The last 4 years the Panthers have dominated the result but there have still been 4 different teams contesting.

I agree the better run teams should get better results over the long term.

But:

- Storm have been in the top 8 every single year of the last 10 years
- Rooster in top 8 for 9 of the last 10 years
- Sharks in top 8 for 9 of the last 10 years
- Panthers in top 8 for 8 of the last 10 years
- Broncos Panthers in top 8 for 7 of the last 10 years

As a sport, are we happy that there’s basically only 3 spots up for grabs in the top 8 for other teams over the last 10 years?

Titans & Warriors 2; Tigers 0…

Seems to me to be more than just better run clubs getting success but a systemic obstacle to moving up and down the ladder (the set up of the cap).

 

[Inruin]

I agree the better run teams should get better results over the long term.

But:

- Storm have been in the top 8 every single year of the last 10 years
- Rooster in top 8 for 9 of the last 10 years
- Sharks in top 8 for 9 of the last 10 years
- Panthers in top 8 for 8 of the last 10 years
- Broncos Panthers in top 8 for 7 of the last 10 years

As a sport, are we happy that there’s basically only 3 spots up for grabs in the top 8 for other teams over the last 10 years?

Titans & Warriors 2; Tigers 0…

Seems to me to be more than just better run clubs getting success but a systemic obstacle to moving up and down the ladder (the set up of the cap).

Some COVID years in there but let's put that to the side. Look at the teams that are seemingly always there. Well run, stability, good use of the cap. Now look at us over that period with different owners, how many different coaches etc etc. The tigers...... And how much do you have to be out by in the NRL to not get the results. Not much. And these bottom clubs have been out by a fair bit

These clubs need to get their house in order as the very first and main priority and for a prolonged period of time. Whatever small amount of merit a draft has is not going to address the issue you are talking about.

 

[John Nick]

Some COVID years in there but let's put that to the side. Look at the teams that are seemingly always there. Well run, stability, good use of the cap. Now look at us over that period with different owners, how many different coaches etc etc. The tigers...... And how much do you have to be out by in the NRL to not get the results. Not much. And these bottom clubs have been out by a fair bit

These clubs need to get their house in order as the very first and main priority and for a prolonged period of time. Whatever small amount of merit a draft has is not going to address the issue you are talking about.

Good or bad management of clubs is a totally different conversation.
A draft could be done for younger emerging players and off contract players Sorting through the process is the most important factor

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Some COVID years in there but let's put that to the side. Look at the teams that are seemingly always there. Well run, stability, good use of the cap. Now look at us over that period with different owners, how many different coaches etc etc. The tigers...... And how much do you have to be out by in the NRL to not get the results. Not much. And these bottom clubs have been out by a fair bit

These clubs need to get their house in order as the very first and main priority and for a prolonged period of time. Whatever small amount of merit a draft has is not going to address the issue you are talking about.

I haven’t overly backed the draft, I think there are deeper problems around the cap.

My thoughts are chicken and egg.

You can’t rise up the ladder without success and you can’t get success to rise up the ladder. Well run, stability, good use of the cap? Are those the drivers of success or the product of success?

Propose a plan whereby the Tigers can get to the top 8?

All their talent leaves, they can’t attract a decent coach and they need to pay overs for a substandard squad. The non performing clubs get tainted as career killers and then the best manager/ coach/ individual player can’t do Jack.

The only way out of a downward spiral is a reset from a Gould type figure.

 

[John Nick]

I haven’t overly backed the draft, I think there are deeper problems around the cap.

My thoughts are chicken and egg.

You can’t rise up the ladder without success and you can’t get success to rise up the ladder. Well run, stability, good use of the cap? Are those the drivers of success or the product of success?

Propose a plan whereby the Tigers can get to the top 8?

All their talent leaves, they can’t attract a decent coach and they need to pay overs for a substandard squad. The non performing clubs get tainted as career killers and then the best manager/ coach/ individual player can’t do Jack.

The only way out of a downward spiral is a reset from a Gould type figure.

Interesting to see that Gus is a proponent for a draft scheme in some shape or form

 

[Inruin]

I haven’t overly backed the draft, I think there are deeper problems around the cap.

My thoughts are chicken and egg.

You can’t rise up the ladder without success and you can’t get success to rise up the ladder. Well run, stability, good use of the cap? Are those the drivers of success or the product of success?

Propose a plan whereby the Tigers can get to the top 8?

All their talent leaves, they can’t attract a decent coach and they need to pay overs for a substandard squad. The non performing clubs get tainted as career killers and then the best manager/ coach/ individual player can’t do Jack.

The only way out of a downward spiral is a reset from a Gould type figure.

They are the drivers of success long term. A reset is exactly what some clubs need. How did we go from bottom 8 to top 4? How have the bulldogs? The dragons are heading there. The tigers are a basket case and a draft isn't going to make one bit of difference to their situation. They are a bit of an extreme example with multiple issues stemming mostly from being a merged club. If they give Benji 3-5 years (not that I think he is a good coach) and everyone gets aligned then they can do much better. But paying one of your players $900k to move on (apparently) when you are already bottom of the table is ludicrous. On any given week any team can beat another team. It's not fundamentally broken IMO.

 

[John Nick]

They are the drivers of success long term. A reset is exactly what some clubs need. How did we go from bottom 8 to top 4? How have the bulldogs? The dragons are heading there. The tigers are a basket case and a draft isn't going to make one bit of difference to their situation. They are a bit of an extreme example with multiple issues stemming mostly from being a merged club. If they give Benji 3-5 years (not that I think he is a good coach) and everyone gets aligned then they can do much better. But paying one of your players $900k to move on (apparently) when you are already bottom of the table is ludicrous. On any given week any team can beat another team. It's not fundamentally broken IMO.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's broken
Trying for improvement is what some are looking at

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Salaries for rookies aren't high enough to force them to live in a different city. Some players are keen on that for their own development (i.e. look at all the NZ juniors the flock across the ditch). But you can't pay a player 80k and tell them they have to go live in Canberra. Doesn't work like that. It works in US sports because in the NBA, for example, rookie salaries start at around a $1m per year and go up to $8m per year. Young players aren't turning that down.

As soon as this happens, clubs lose incentive to spend money developing junior talent, so the NRL will have fork out millions every year to replace this.

This is complete nonsense. If you want to be a league player, you will do what it takes or someone else will. American stars are paid more because their league is worth more. Not only that, their league is worth more because of changes like these.

The famous NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle constantly had to fight purists who tried to resist changes to the game. Adapt or die. Look at cricket, Union etc.

 

[Five&Last]

This is complete nonsense. If you want to be a league player, you will do what it takes or someone else will. American stars are paid more because their league is worth more. Not only that, their league is worth more because of changes like these.

The famous NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle constantly had to fight purists who tried to resist changes to the game. Adapt or die. Look at cricket, Union etc.

How is that nonsense?

17 year old league prospects have other options, watch them flock over to rugby union. You're telling me if Kalyn Ponga, Joseph Suaalii were drafted first in their respective years to a city they didn't want to go live in, they wouldn't just stay in union? Plenty of league prospects would convert happily.

We have a hard enough time pulling away dual code First XV talent away from the grip of the NZRU as it is.

Its even starting to happen in the NBA where players will force their way to certain situations or tell certain teams not to draft them.

Tell me who's going to put up the money to fund junior development once a draft come in? Don't tell me the NRL after they scrapped the NYC U20's due to costs.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

How is that nonsense?

17 year old league prospects have other options, watch them flock over to rugby union. You're telling me if Kalyn Ponga, Joseph Suaalii were drafted first in their respective years to a city they didn't want to go live in, they wouldn't just stay in union? Plenty of league prospects would convert happily.

Cool let them go to Union and play a sport that never get watched. Drafts work in many sports, so saying young players wont go where drafted is demonstratably false.

We have a hard enough time pulling away dual code First XV talent away from the grip of the NZRU as it is.

And? Not sure why you think NZ is the centre of this discussion.

Its even starting to happen in the NBA where players will force their way to certain situations or tell certain teams not to draft them.

And? The NFL pioneered the way to dominance. All American basketball has done is squandered the half century head start they had.

Tell me who's going to put up the money to fund junior development once a draft come in? Don't tell me the NRL after they scrapped the NYC U20's due to costs.

College and schools. Meaning its properly funded moving forward and has an organic fan base attached.

 

[Inruin]

Cool let them go to Union and play a sport that never get watched. Drafts work in many sports, so saying young players wont go where drafted is demonstratably false.

And? Not sure why you think NZ is the centre of this discussion.

And? The NFL pioneered the way to dominance. All American basketball has done is squandered the half century head start they had.

College and schools. Meaning its properly funded moving forward and has an organic fan base attached.

When you say the draft works in many sports, what you mean is that it functions ok as a process. The key thing for me, as Teets posted earlier, is that a draft doesn't appear to fix any perceived problem of making the league more competitive. So why would you bother putting the time and resource in to changing the system to something that demonstrably in other sports doesn't fix the issue you are trying to solve?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

When you say the draft works in many sports, what you mean is that it functions ok as a process. The key thing for me, as Teets posted earlier, is that a draft doesn't appear to fix any perceived problem of making the league more competitive. So why would you bother putting the time and resource in to changing the system to something that demonstrably in other sports doesn't fix the issue you are trying to solve?

Why I am arguing the draft’s appearance to you? That’s entirely perception. If you think all these major sports are wrong, then just table the data on how the NRL is more competitive without a draft.

 

[Inruin]

Why I am arguing the draft’s appearance to you? That’s entirely perception. If you think all these major sports are wrong, then just table the data on how the NRL is more competitive without a draft.

I don't think other major sports are wrong, they just have a different system that suits their environment and make up.

Data has been tabled that shows that the NRL is as competitive as other sports with a draft. So why invest time and resource in to it?

Can you table the data that shows the NRL would be more competitive with a draft? And that's without factoring in the investment and disruption required to implement it.

 

[Teets]

Whats the metric for NFL being more competitive?

They've had 10 different teams in the superbowl the last 10 years.

NRL has had 9 Grand finalists.

Our spoonbowlers Tigers and Eels have a better win percentage this year than 6 NFL teams.

Every sports league in the world has shit teams.

Detroit Lions had a season they went 0 and 16 in 2008 followed by a 2 and 14 season.

Cleveland Browns went 1 and 15, then 0 and 16, in 2016 and 2017.

You can climb you way off the bottom in both leagues.

Panthers went Wooden Spoon to Prem between 2001 and 2003. Sharks the same from 2014 to 2016.

 

[Christchurch_Warrior]

This is another take on the draft. Not for rookies but a draft for the open market. I am still neutral on this as the devil is in the details.

“I hate the system”: Why Rogers is pushing for NRL to scrap current free agency model

Would this change work?

www.sen.com.au

 

[John Nick]

This is another take on the draft. Not for rookies but a draft for the open market. I am still neutral on this as the devil is in the details.

“I hate the system”: Why Rogers is pushing for NRL to scrap current free agency model

Would this change work?

www.sen.com.au

The NRL has set up the NRL Pathways Steering Committee to investigate the pros and cons.
A court case 20+ years ago was won against the NSWRL against a draft scheme.
Interesting times and shitloads of options and variations all of which needs discussion

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Interesting times and shitloads of options and variations all of which needs discussion

This.. Most commentary so far is all self protectionism