If anyone at NRL headquarters is watching the Fiji game in super rugby right now their chances of a team are taking a big hit. Raining hard and the field looks like something from the 80’s a absolute mess.
NRL NRL Expansion
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snake77
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Some interesting points raised on the challenges facing the second franchise.
Yes there will be challenges in terms of the population where they are primarily based. Getting membership numbers. The fact New Zealanders can quickly stop following a losing side. Where ever they are based there would more than likely be a Super Rugby franchise. Christchurch being based in the same city as the Crusaders who are traditionally strong would be a challenge, start losing and people will decide going to the stadium for one team is enough.
The people behind these bids should be looking at all of these challenges and looking for solutions. They would have the attitude it will work otherwise they wouldn't be bidding.
For the membership numbers, crowd attendance they would need to look at additional revenue streams like all entertainment businesses.
If they aren't tied to a specific city and can move games from say a main base of Christchurch to Dunedin & Wellington they have 3 decent stadiums to use. That would help with any clashes with Super Rugby franchises.
For the sport in New Zealand a second franchise would do a lot.
Yes there will be challenges in terms of the population where they are primarily based. Getting membership numbers. The fact New Zealanders can quickly stop following a losing side. Where ever they are based there would more than likely be a Super Rugby franchise. Christchurch being based in the same city as the Crusaders who are traditionally strong would be a challenge, start losing and people will decide going to the stadium for one team is enough.
The people behind these bids should be looking at all of these challenges and looking for solutions. They would have the attitude it will work otherwise they wouldn't be bidding.
For the membership numbers, crowd attendance they would need to look at additional revenue streams like all entertainment businesses.
If they aren't tied to a specific city and can move games from say a main base of Christchurch to Dunedin & Wellington they have 3 decent stadiums to use. That would help with any clashes with Super Rugby franchises.
For the sport in New Zealand a second franchise would do a lot.
Please elaborate. What would it do?
snake77
🛡️
The perception of the sport in NZ is pretty much tied to the success of the Warriors. If the Warriors aren't going well traditionally it isn't great for the sport. Bad press, it may even affect participation locally.
So another franchise would help. Sure they could both have a poor season.
The local rivalry would also mean two weeks a year there would be media attention built up for the upcoming game.
Probably the most important is the playing numbers. Another club with it's own development systems, more professional rugby league players. We lose a large number of young players to Australia every year as the other clubs entice them to live in Australia for schooling, jobs as they work their way through their development systems. Part of the reasons for the Warriors to join the Australian clubs besides stronger opposition as they develop is to keep more players in New Zealand. Another club would mean more young players staying at home with their parents instead of being lost overseas. Some move across with their family. That will still happen but another side would do a lot to keep players here.
More pathways is huge, I’m almost certain player numbers in juniors ranks would go up big time in Christchurch if they had a team based there.
A NZ rivalry would be huge, so much more money flowing into the NZ game.
So many more kiwi kids would be able to stay in NZ. There are even kids from Dunedin that go to Australia for an opportunity. Sure their families would rather they drive four hours up the road that that.
The game in Christchurch loses lots of players every year to Aussie feeder teams or even just bush footy teams.
Not disagreeing with you but a couple of points:
Perth has about 2m people which when spread across 4 pro footy teams is half a million each, more than many current teams. Numbers wise there should be a big enough pop for 4 pro teams.
The PNG base was rumoured to be in northern Queenstown, flying in for games. That would take away a lot of the living in PNG issue.
Same as above could work for Fiji.
Last year in April 2023 according to this article the Southern Orcas out of Wellington were also still in the mixer
www.foxsports.com.au
The state of play for NRL’s 18th team as Dolphins answer glaring expansion question
The state of play for NRL’s 18th team as Dolphins answer glaring expansion question
www.foxsports.com.au
Personally I don’t think Wellington should be the home base for a second team.Last year in April 2023 according to this article the Southern Orcas out of Wellington were also still in the mixer
The state of play for NRL’s 18th team as Dolphins answer glaring expansion question
The state of play for NRL’s 18th team as Dolphins answer glaring expansion question
No roof on the stadium, oval shaped ground puts fans further away than a rectangular ground, Smaller population than Christchurch even when you add in greater Wellington because you have to then add in the surrounding areas of Christchurch.
If Wellington was building a new indoor stadium that was designed for oval ball codes and not cricket as well then the argument is tighter
I dunno if I buy into all the arguments about a 2nd NZ Franchise needing to be localized to one city.
I think most New Zealanders, having followed the Warriors, realise that it is a rare privilege to have a stake in an NRL side (which is why South islanders pack stadiums to watch a winning Auckland team).
Kiwis are not stupid, they have bought into a team from Auckland despite hating Auckland like all of Australia hates Sydney.
The Warriors have a healthy fan base in the Waikato, Bop, Taranaki, Wellington, Christchurch, Dunners etc....why should a second non Auckland side need to be limited to the same mono culture, the same narrow minded provincialism of the Union model?
Bullshit. I can tell you now, a non Auckland NZ side will have the interest and the eye of all New Zealanders, including us Warriors fans, from their launch into the NRL and for the entire debut season.
What they need more than a brand, is to win more games than they lose, and to make the top eight in year one, if they do that, they will have a bigger band wagon than the WAHS, hell even Wahs Nazis like me will be visiting their Forum and losing sleep the night before game day.
This is why I say call them the New Zealand whatever, because Kiwis are not retards they know NRL entry means NZ Vs the Best of Australia.
All this talk of the Warriors dropping the NZ tag is bullshit, hell if we end up with four franchises that would still be four New Zealand Warriors/NZ Kea/NZ Orca/NZ Owls vs Australia, PNG, and one day Fiji.
Bottom line, if the Warriors suck in any given year I will gladly commit more time to a winning NZ franchise because for me, this is about beating Aussies first, following your usual club second.
Have I got that sentiment wrong?
Mates can you imaging the buzz the week leading up to game one for the new franchise, Fuck me, from my pov it will be like reliving the most exciting week of my life, 1995, the seven days before Dean Bell lead his team out of the tunnel.
Imagine the freaking crowd and the atmosphere if the NRL bring the Storm or even better for the nod to history the Broncos to play them on debut?
I have never understood all the negative nancy's about a second franchise in NZ. The Warriors survived with decades of shit performance, off five thousand fans who showed up in the pissing rain.
It honestly freaks me out that a lot of Warriors fans cannot imagine the feeling on seeing another NZ vs Australia option in a contest where we have been the solo lonely grossly outnumbered voice of Rugby league.
I would cream myself if the weekend meant two days of being pumped to watch my favorite sport.
Get on board you stingy bastards, support another shot at all those smug Aussie sports clubs.
Having two of us will defo improve the Warriors Bunker treatment, since poor rulings against more than one NZ side will be a really piss poor look for the comp.
I would back the second franchise with the same passion, I do not need to justify my Warriors gang patch by ignoring a new chapter from somewhere else against all these Aussie bastards.
Imagine the press releases and all the Rugby league talk, there would be more than double the discussion we are having right now with a new side.
Imagine the NRL coverage on all their TV show platforms.
And what about a Derby promo for the Warriors in the NRL come NZ vs NZ round?
The potential for a SOO like clash of pure Kiwi on Kiwi hatred would be enough to ignite the entire NRL marketing and media machine and thrill all of the neutral fans over in Australia.
I have spent years reading Warrior fan rubbish about waiting till the Warriors succeed first, I hope
I have convinced you all that this mode of thinking is incredibly backwards given what is at stake, given what two NZ sides could bring to the colour of the NRL competition which at the moment is crying out for something completely new and exciting.
Adding more states, or QLD sides is lame compared to adding more invaders from another country in any competitive model.
I think most New Zealanders, having followed the Warriors, realise that it is a rare privilege to have a stake in an NRL side (which is why South islanders pack stadiums to watch a winning Auckland team).
Kiwis are not stupid, they have bought into a team from Auckland despite hating Auckland like all of Australia hates Sydney.
The Warriors have a healthy fan base in the Waikato, Bop, Taranaki, Wellington, Christchurch, Dunners etc....why should a second non Auckland side need to be limited to the same mono culture, the same narrow minded provincialism of the Union model?
Bullshit. I can tell you now, a non Auckland NZ side will have the interest and the eye of all New Zealanders, including us Warriors fans, from their launch into the NRL and for the entire debut season.
What they need more than a brand, is to win more games than they lose, and to make the top eight in year one, if they do that, they will have a bigger band wagon than the WAHS, hell even Wahs Nazis like me will be visiting their Forum and losing sleep the night before game day.
This is why I say call them the New Zealand whatever, because Kiwis are not retards they know NRL entry means NZ Vs the Best of Australia.
All this talk of the Warriors dropping the NZ tag is bullshit, hell if we end up with four franchises that would still be four New Zealand Warriors/NZ Kea/NZ Orca/NZ Owls vs Australia, PNG, and one day Fiji.
Bottom line, if the Warriors suck in any given year I will gladly commit more time to a winning NZ franchise because for me, this is about beating Aussies first, following your usual club second.
Have I got that sentiment wrong?
Mates can you imaging the buzz the week leading up to game one for the new franchise, Fuck me, from my pov it will be like reliving the most exciting week of my life, 1995, the seven days before Dean Bell lead his team out of the tunnel.
Imagine the freaking crowd and the atmosphere if the NRL bring the Storm or even better for the nod to history the Broncos to play them on debut?
I have never understood all the negative nancy's about a second franchise in NZ. The Warriors survived with decades of shit performance, off five thousand fans who showed up in the pissing rain.
It honestly freaks me out that a lot of Warriors fans cannot imagine the feeling on seeing another NZ vs Australia option in a contest where we have been the solo lonely grossly outnumbered voice of Rugby league.
I would cream myself if the weekend meant two days of being pumped to watch my favorite sport.
Get on board you stingy bastards, support another shot at all those smug Aussie sports clubs.
Having two of us will defo improve the Warriors Bunker treatment, since poor rulings against more than one NZ side will be a really piss poor look for the comp.
I would back the second franchise with the same passion, I do not need to justify my Warriors gang patch by ignoring a new chapter from somewhere else against all these Aussie bastards.
Imagine the press releases and all the Rugby league talk, there would be more than double the discussion we are having right now with a new side.
Imagine the NRL coverage on all their TV show platforms.
And what about a Derby promo for the Warriors in the NRL come NZ vs NZ round?
The potential for a SOO like clash of pure Kiwi on Kiwi hatred would be enough to ignite the entire NRL marketing and media machine and thrill all of the neutral fans over in Australia.
I have spent years reading Warrior fan rubbish about waiting till the Warriors succeed first, I hope
I have convinced you all that this mode of thinking is incredibly backwards given what is at stake, given what two NZ sides could bring to the colour of the NRL competition which at the moment is crying out for something completely new and exciting.
Adding more states, or QLD sides is lame compared to adding more invaders from another country in any competitive model.
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snake77
🛡️
I'm on board with the keeping the region out of the name. @sup42 has outlined it well in his last few posts. The one above and a few pages back.
Keep it generic or NZ like the Warriors. The Sydney clubs have flirted with being Sydney Bulldogs/Rooster or dropping the region name. There was also talk about the Dolphins just being the Dolphins and not Redcliffe.
A nick name is a bit easier to move around the country for the odd game instead of getting Wellington people to support Christchurch or vice versa.
Where ever they are based primarily might make it a bit difficult for the Warriors to move the odd game there. The same may happen if they tried to take a game to Auckland.
Traditionally the talk for a second side was for Wellington. Sure then they had the new stadium built. There has also been talk of being based in Auckland due to population. I don't know how the population would take to that (we are getting down to individuals). People may get tribal or loyal to their current club or they may get excited for more NRL locally. That would require some market research.
I'm getting more in favour of being based in Christchurch with games moved to Dunedin or Wellington. Especially with having two covered stadiums in the South Island.
I haven't been to Christchurch a lot so can't comment on what it's like in winter or how appealing it would be recruit Australians. I have some work collegues down there and the summers sound nice (better than the last few in Auckland).
They would need to get their sales pitch for any recruitment like the Warriors have done in the past. A smaller city would have some advantages over being in a big city like Auckland, Melbourne or Sydney. You can get around easier. Get out of town quickly to see the sites etc.
Keep it generic or NZ like the Warriors. The Sydney clubs have flirted with being Sydney Bulldogs/Rooster or dropping the region name. There was also talk about the Dolphins just being the Dolphins and not Redcliffe.
A nick name is a bit easier to move around the country for the odd game instead of getting Wellington people to support Christchurch or vice versa.
Where ever they are based primarily might make it a bit difficult for the Warriors to move the odd game there. The same may happen if they tried to take a game to Auckland.
Traditionally the talk for a second side was for Wellington. Sure then they had the new stadium built. There has also been talk of being based in Auckland due to population. I don't know how the population would take to that (we are getting down to individuals). People may get tribal or loyal to their current club or they may get excited for more NRL locally. That would require some market research.
I'm getting more in favour of being based in Christchurch with games moved to Dunedin or Wellington. Especially with having two covered stadiums in the South Island.
I haven't been to Christchurch a lot so can't comment on what it's like in winter or how appealing it would be recruit Australians. I have some work collegues down there and the summers sound nice (better than the last few in Auckland).
They would need to get their sales pitch for any recruitment like the Warriors have done in the past. A smaller city would have some advantages over being in a big city like Auckland, Melbourne or Sydney. You can get around easier. Get out of town quickly to see the sites etc.
The question for Perth is really where do the players come from? Not really any WA players of note playing NRL and their regional rep side recently got pumped by everyone so not to many local prospects.
You’d end up with a Melbourne scenario having to import majority of your players, Melbourne had a leg up their first few years and had the advantage of picking the carcass of the Mariners and Reds in particular and also the crushers going under the year prior to help put together a foundation squad- something Perth will not. Also as lovely as Perth is it’s very isolated and literally nothing for hours once you leave the city, it’s the but of jokes a bit and not an easy sell to move to.
PNG have moved away from the idea of Cairns, the cowboys don’t want a team in their territory and the PNG prime minister has pretty much said Port Moresby or nothing.
Fiji is a 5 hour flight from Aus, a team can’t really fifo from there
snake77
🛡️
Hasn't Perth fallen out of favour with the NRL as a new destination. The talk was about the time zone helping with time slots but last I remember reading it wasn't looked too favourable with the flight across Australia.
I know flying to NZ, Fiji, PNG are also long. Just writing what I remember last hearing on Perth.
The Friday 6pm Aus / 8pm NZ time slot they now have would help the second NZ franchise. If play there now a lot I'm surprised no clubs/journalists have started whining like the old Broncos on Friday night complaints.
The last spot that went to the Dolphins had quite a few places bidding for it with a few from Queensland, Central Coast. Talk of NZ or Perth. They got the extra Queensland side. So the next one might be a bit more strategic. It probably would be a good chance for the 2nd NZ franchise if they have everything sorted financially.
Otherwise the wait to go from 18 to 20 could be a while.
I know flying to NZ, Fiji, PNG are also long. Just writing what I remember last hearing on Perth.
The Friday 6pm Aus / 8pm NZ time slot they now have would help the second NZ franchise. If play there now a lot I'm surprised no clubs/journalists have started whining like the old Broncos on Friday night complaints.
The last spot that went to the Dolphins had quite a few places bidding for it with a few from Queensland, Central Coast. Talk of NZ or Perth. They got the extra Queensland side. So the next one might be a bit more strategic. It probably would be a good chance for the 2nd NZ franchise if they have everything sorted financially.
Otherwise the wait to go from 18 to 20 could be a while.
Lower cost of living as compared to Auckland, live like a Prince on the beach front.
Also can anyone imagine what a team from outside Auckland offering Warriors rejects jobs with a ten million dollar salary cap could assemble?
Man that would see players nine out of ten of the New Zealand international side given offers to stay onshore and not need to go to Australia to get contracts.
As much as this hurts to admit, the Warriors recruit the slag, the scraps, the left overs of New Zealands best players.
There is no reason that the next Benji Marshall, JWH, Brandon Smith, Griffin Neame, Jahrome Hughes, James Fisher Harris, NAS, Tapine, Bromwich, Rapana, Manu, Leota, would not sign on good money to stay in NZ after being scouted by a much better recruiter than the Warriors model of big body Auckland usual type.
Canterbury won the NZ schools, the timing is perfect for a South Island franchise to come in and raid Canterbury and Otago schoolboy Union and League stocks, let alone the massive pool of ignored by Warriors youth from Wellington, the BOP, Taranaki, Waikato etc.
snake77
🛡️
Having a rival locally would mean the Warriors would have to be on top of their game recruitment wise. That should hopefully lead to a more consistent club.
The people behind these bids need to ensure they have answers to all of the questions the NRL would ask around development, recruitment, proposed crowd numbers and financials.
The Dolphins beat out the other clubs as they were strong financially.
They should also get contacts within the NRL to give them regular updates and to be presenting regularly to the NRL. If the NRL asks them something that may be an issue, work on it and come back with answers.
They need to be in a position that when the NRL are looking to expand they now that there is a bid that is ready. They may make a strategic decision to have a club somewhere else but at least they would be making the decision difficult for the NRL.
The people behind these bids need to ensure they have answers to all of the questions the NRL would ask around development, recruitment, proposed crowd numbers and financials.
The Dolphins beat out the other clubs as they were strong financially.
They should also get contacts within the NRL to give them regular updates and to be presenting regularly to the NRL. If the NRL asks them something that may be an issue, work on it and come back with answers.
They need to be in a position that when the NRL are looking to expand they now that there is a bid that is ready. They may make a strategic decision to have a club somewhere else but at least they would be making the decision difficult for the NRL.
There’s a couple of big factors in expansion;
1.Who is going to pay for it?
2.Where are the players coming from?
Been talk over in Aus about taking a “safe bid” then “risky bid” approach for expansion. When I say “Safe bid” I mean the like of Brisbane Tigers/Brisbane 3
Ie a Dolphins type scenario where the QLD cup team is essentially ‘promoted’ to the NRL with its own pre established pathways, sponsors and financial assists in place.
The other type of “safe bid” is Jets/Bears, now the NRL knows that there’s no room for another NSW team but rather again promoting a nsw cup team to an expansion area tapping into its brand and pre established pathways etc- this is shaping up as the likely Perth outcome.
“Risky bids”
PNG - government money takes care of the funding (for now) the players are the hard bit with this bid. Strong political pressure for this to happen.
Fiji - again after government funding, big likely sponsor in Fiji Airways which doubles as solid tourism investment, players a better prospect. Infrastructure is maybe the one hiccup.
NZ2- Not sure how the funding stacks up, not sure the player pathways stack up, we’d be reliant on a few ‘NZ imports’ aka current NRL players with NZ attachments coming over. But in terms of players from scratch probably one of the more likely prospects compared to other expansion markets.
TV then has a big say,
next expansion is easiest to push up the tv deal as it’s another game if content, next one will have to be something the broadcasters want for them to pay more, and supposedly that’s Brisbane 3, however Perth is at least Australian content- NZ2/PNG/Fiji hold little value to Australian broadcasters. Sky more than funds the Warriors, depending on how much more they can pay would have a huge say in NZ2.
So in orders if safest bid to Riskiest bid I’d put them in this order;
Brisbane 3
Perth
NZ2
Fiji
PNG
As it’s all but confirmed we are moving towards 20 teams my crystal ball tells me
18 Perth (with Bears)
19 NZ2
20 Brisbane 3
Think PNG really will be in the too hard basket and it will only get in as team 18 with extreme political pressure, wouldn’t surprise me if a combined Fiji/PNG was considered.
1.Who is going to pay for it?
2.Where are the players coming from?
Been talk over in Aus about taking a “safe bid” then “risky bid” approach for expansion. When I say “Safe bid” I mean the like of Brisbane Tigers/Brisbane 3
Ie a Dolphins type scenario where the QLD cup team is essentially ‘promoted’ to the NRL with its own pre established pathways, sponsors and financial assists in place.
The other type of “safe bid” is Jets/Bears, now the NRL knows that there’s no room for another NSW team but rather again promoting a nsw cup team to an expansion area tapping into its brand and pre established pathways etc- this is shaping up as the likely Perth outcome.
“Risky bids”
PNG - government money takes care of the funding (for now) the players are the hard bit with this bid. Strong political pressure for this to happen.
Fiji - again after government funding, big likely sponsor in Fiji Airways which doubles as solid tourism investment, players a better prospect. Infrastructure is maybe the one hiccup.
NZ2- Not sure how the funding stacks up, not sure the player pathways stack up, we’d be reliant on a few ‘NZ imports’ aka current NRL players with NZ attachments coming over. But in terms of players from scratch probably one of the more likely prospects compared to other expansion markets.
TV then has a big say,
next expansion is easiest to push up the tv deal as it’s another game if content, next one will have to be something the broadcasters want for them to pay more, and supposedly that’s Brisbane 3, however Perth is at least Australian content- NZ2/PNG/Fiji hold little value to Australian broadcasters. Sky more than funds the Warriors, depending on how much more they can pay would have a huge say in NZ2.
So in orders if safest bid to Riskiest bid I’d put them in this order;
Brisbane 3
Perth
NZ2
Fiji
PNG
As it’s all but confirmed we are moving towards 20 teams my crystal ball tells me
18 Perth (with Bears)
19 NZ2
20 Brisbane 3
Think PNG really will be in the too hard basket and it will only get in as team 18 with extreme political pressure, wouldn’t surprise me if a combined Fiji/PNG was considered.
Yeah with the PNG government saying they aren’t interested if it’s based in Australia it becomes way to hard
Bigger than Townsville which is around 140k. Similar to newscastle and Canberra area. But they need a solid base
Would love to see the bears and jets back in. Couple of retro games at Henson Park and north Sydney oval. Plenty of NSW pokie money to prop them up. Relocation of existing teams has worked in AFL as opposed to new teams.
PNG is a given. US and Aus money will make it so. Might be based out of Cairns and have Fifo to Port Moresby. Flight time is only 60 minutes so no problem. Big problem would be to get families to relocate to PNG which is rough as but Cairns would be a much easier sell and likely to last…
PNG team don't want to be based out of Cairns. Which will make it nearly impossible to get outside talent.
And kidwell.
