Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[defensivebomb]

So where's the breakdown?

Which taxes have gone up?

What is revenue made up of?

HEY, MAYBE THE ECONOMY WASN'T SO BAD AFTER ALL!!!!!

here you go. IRD website. These are the taxes collected from individuals only.

$62b in 2017 to $91b in 2022.

So, we shouldn't cut taxes? If we are paying more and more, and the govt isn't delivering, we can either
1. ask them to deliver better services or
2. get them to reduce their wasteful tax take

 

[juju]

here you go. IRD website. These are the taxes collected from individuals only.

$62b in 2017 to $91b in 2022.

So, we shouldn't cut taxes? If we are paying more and more, and the govt isn't delivering, we can either
1. ask them to deliver better services or
2. get them to reduce their wasteful tax take

View attachment 4549

here you go. IRD website. These are the taxes collected from individuals only.

$62b in 2017 to $91b in 2022.

So, we shouldn't cut taxes? If we are paying more and more, and the govt isn't delivering, we can either
1. ask them to deliver better services or
2. get them to reduce their wasteful tax take

View attachment 4549

or 3. given corporate profit - tax them more and lower the tax burden for individuals.

 

[defensivebomb]

or 3. given corporate profit - tax them more and lower the tax burden for individuals.

I don’t have a problem with that option

However, it is my view that the govt has a spending problem. It should be able to deliver essentials with less money by cutting wasteful projects and operating with more discipline

 

[MaybeTop8]

here you go. IRD website. These are the taxes collected from individuals only.

$62b in 2017 to $91b in 2022.

So, we shouldn't cut taxes? If we are paying more and more, and the govt isn't delivering, we can either
1. ask them to deliver better services or
2. get them to reduce their wasteful tax take

View attachment 4549

An increase in tax take isn't the same as a tax increase. Two different things. Wouldn't a better question to answer be what tax rates increased over a particular government? You could then apply that to the one before Labour as well.

 

[defensivebomb]

An increase in tax take isn't the same as a tax increase. Two different things. Wouldn't a better question to answer be what tax rates increased over a particular government? You could then apply that to the one before Labour as well.

Yeah I get you. Tax bracket creep would be a good example. It should be a standard policy to adjust these with inflation. Unfortunately, govts have gotten used to leaving the brackets the same and enjoying a slowly growing tax pool to plug gaps

The fuel taxes another example. Fine if they used it to build something. But it never happened. I could better use that money they’ve collected from me at the fuel pump. I could have paid down debt or bought groceries. Instead, it’s sitting in a govt bank account. So yeah, I’d like that tax to be cut. I’m sure I’m not alone

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

An increase in tax take isn't the same as a tax increase. Two different things. Wouldn't a better question to answer be what tax rates increased over a particular government? You could then apply that to the one before Labour as well.

This graph show what percentage of the economy the government takes as tax as a percentage of GDP (the economy). A bigger government, as we have seen the last few years, drains the economy and individuals but should deliver superior health, education, roads, etc.

This graph shows corporate tax, GST and personal taxes which have all increased proportionally. If you doubled the corporate tax take it wouldn’t deliver significant tax savings while stifling the economy. You could save as much from the personal tax rate by just reducing tax to how it was a couple of years ago.


In both examples it clearly shows the last 2 years have had a massive increase in tax take at the time we have a cost of living crisis, stagnant economy and recession. The people and business have been pumped to hard and I can’t see any gain with better health, education, roads, etc.

 

[MaybeTop8]

This graph show what percentage of the economy the government takes as tax as a percentage of GDP (the economy). A bigger government, as we have seen the last few years, drains the economy and individuals but should deliver superior health, education, roads, etc.
View attachment 4553
This graph shows corporate tax, GST and personal taxes which have all increased proportionally. If you doubled the corporate tax take it wouldn’t deliver significant tax savings while stifling the economy. You could save as much from the personal tax rate by just reducing tax to how it was a couple of years ago.

View attachment 4554
In both examples it clearly shows the last 2 years have had a massive increase in tax take at the time we have a cost of living crisis, stagnant economy and recession. The people and business have been pumped to hard and I can’t see any gain with better health, education, roads, etc.

You're conveniently ignoring covid, the corporate bailouts and all countries around the world have experienced a cost of living crisis, stagnant economies and recession. New Zealand has actually done better than most by those metrics.

Meanwhile landlords get an extra billion in backdated ird cheques thanks to ACT - who knew they loved welfare so much?

 

[juju]

You're conveniently ignoring covid, the corporate bailouts and all countries around the world have experienced a cost of living crisis, stagnant economies and recession. New Zealand has actually done better than most by those metrics.

Meanwhile landlords get an extra billion in backdated ird cheques thanks to ACT - who knew they loved welfare so much?

Corporate tax take and gst tax take going up is a bad thing apparently...

 

[defensivebomb]

You're conveniently ignoring covid, the corporate bailouts and all countries around the world have experienced a cost of living crisis, stagnant economies and recession. New Zealand has actually done better than most by those metrics.

Meanwhile landlords get an extra billion in backdated ird cheques thanks to ACT - who knew they loved welfare so much?

If we are to include covid, we should add $60bn that Grant borrowed from our kids and add that to the graph as well…

 

[juju]

If we are to include covid, we should add $60bn that Grant borrowed from our kids and add that to the graph as well…

Global debt grew somewhere between $19 & 24 Trillion during covid...

And the Government handling of covid resulted in a historic landslide election victory.

 

[defensivebomb]

And the Government handling of covid resulted in a historic landslide election victory.

well, that’s subjective. In 2020, a lot of people switched to voting labour to block the greens in 2020. Labour was always going to win, but a pure Labour govt was seen as preferable than a labour-greens govt.

And the govts handling of covid during its second term resulted in a landslide switch back to the right in forgotten Auckland.

In any case, i don’t think we would agree on covid

 

[dean]

Meanwhile landlords get an extra billion in backdated ird cheques thanks to ACT - who knew they loved welfare so much?

I don't have a problem with the tax deductability for landlords, it is a business expense. However, the brightline test should stay at ten years, that should be the horizon for investing.
Thinking that rents will drop by reversing the tax position is dreaming. Rental increases may stall as a result but supply and demand will be the main driver as it always is. I guess the other issue is peoples ability to pay, surely that must be at breaking point for many renters now.

 

[juju]

well, that’s subjective. In 2020, a lot of people switched to voting labour to block the greens in 2020. Labour was always going to win, but a pure Labour govt was seen as preferable than a labour-greens govt.

And the govts handling of covid during its second term resulted in a landslide switch back to the right in forgotten Auckland.

In any case, i don’t think we would agree on covid

The money borrowed during was completely proportionate to what other countries borrowed & responded - but with our health outcomes and less time spent in lock down.
It's pretty easy to lose perspective of that time & how fluid the situation was across the globe.
Definitely the government got a bit wrong.

The 2020 election result was literally nothing to do with the greens who still ended up at nearly 8%.

 

[Noitall]

The money borrowed during was completely proportionate to what other countries borrowed & responded - but with our health outcomes and less time spent in lock down.
It's pretty easy to lose perspective of that time & how fluid the situation was across the globe.
Definitely the government got a bit wrong.

The 2020 election result was literally nothing to do with the greens who still ended up at nearly 8%.

Underestimated what covid has done economically and socially, the world doesn’t seem like the same place since and many people I talk to feel the same way. Instead of BC meaning before christ, it almost feels like BC will mean before covid one day.

 

[defensivebomb]

The 2020 election result was literally nothing to do with the greens who still ended up at nearly 8%.

I know of more than a few people that voted Labour when it became clear that the right wouldn't win, and who thought the greens' tax policies were abhorrent, so voted to give Labour the best chance of a greens shutout

The greens were proposing a guaranteed income of $17k and would have paid for it with a 1% tax on assets over $1m:

Greens unveil plans to overhaul welfare and tax systems

The Green Party's first election policy is a total overhaul of the welfare system, with a basic income of at least $325 a week at its core, funded by a wealth tax.

newsroom.co.nz

Don't get me wrong, Labour was going to win because of their first covid years. But it was a landslide because the right was going to lose, and some of those votes went Labour to prevent the greens at all costs, giving Labour the outright majority and removing the need for a greens coalition. The greens' votes didn't move, as you have pointed out

 

[juju]

I know of more than a few people that voted Labour when it became clear that the right wouldn't win, and who thought the greens' tax policies were abhorrent, so voted to give Labour the best chance of a greens shutout

The greens were proposing a guaranteed income of $17k and would have paid for it with a 1% tax on assets over $1m:

Greens unveil plans to overhaul welfare and tax systems

The Green Party's first election policy is a total overhaul of the welfare system, with a basic income of at least $325 a week at its core, funded by a wealth tax.

newsroom.co.nz

Don't get me wrong, Labour was going to win because of their first covid years. But it was a landslide because the right was going to lose, and some of those votes went Labour to prevent the greens at all costs, giving Labour the outright majority and removing the need for a greens coalition. The greens' votes didn't move, as you have pointed out

That is seriously a major stretch - given the greens were always going to end up in government.

The result was more a vote in appreciation of the stewardship during covid AND a rejection of National, who were in the midst of a period of nasty political tactics, nasty behaviour from MPs and regular leadership changes.

The Greens tax policy is alot less abhorrent than repealing smokefree legislation when it was barely campaigned on (especially with the connections to major tobacco)

 

[juju]

 

[miket12]

What's the world coming to when Seymour is "The Voice of Reason"

 

[MaybeTop8]

I don't have a problem with the tax deductability for landlords, it is a business expense. However, the brightline test should stay at ten years, that should be the horizon for investing.
Thinking that rents will drop by reversing the tax position is dreaming. Rental increases may stall as a result but supply and demand will be the main driver as it always is. I guess the other issue is peoples ability to pay, surely that must be at breaking point for many renters now.

the "mom and pop" landlords - it's an investment. And yes I hate that term. If it's a business, tax the income. Tax the gains. Where else can you run a business constantly at a loss and still make huge amounts of money?

Plus - Luxon and a huge number of these politicians have rentals. Massive conflict of interest. RESIGN!!!!

 

[dean]

the "mom and pop" landlords - it's an investment. And yes I hate that term. If it's a business, tax the income. Tax the gains. Where else can you run a business constantly at a loss and still make huge amounts of money?

Plus - Luxon and a huge number of these politicians have rentals. Massive conflict of interest. RESIGN!!!!

It is a business being a landlord. You must comply with the RTA and tax laws and ignorance is no excuse.
Any business can claim overheads as a business cost for tax purposes and mortgage interest costs had been a claimable overhead until Labour changed the law. It is no different to buying a digger or ten diggers with a 10% deposit, hiring them out and claiming the interest costs on the loan as an overhead.
Yields on rental properties are usually less than bank deposits, so on the face of it they are a crap investment. However, they can be profitable if they are held long term and you get rental and capital growth. This is not certain and varies widely. The last 10 years would have been the best since the 80's.