Noitall
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Would be handy for congestion if there was a reliable public transport system
Politics π³οΈ NZ Politics
- Thread starter wizard of Tauranga
- Start date
I agree that high migration can exacerbate the wider issues - but the core issues aren't migration itself - it's a lack of planning/investment by Govt.
Migrants can't bring their entire families over. You have to go through a parent visa process.
No one said migrants can't/shouldn't buy property. I'm saying that central govt planning/investment of housing supply coupled with a lack of disincentives for the investment property market is killing us.
Always the standard response from the left, designed as social critique to stifle the conversation. No, migrants aren't the problem as per my post. Mass immigration from different cultures is the problem.
migrants = people
immigration = policy
Noitall
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Somewhat of a contradiction though. In response to a post from Rizzah your number 1 point was that immigrants donβt increase gdp to cover them coming here. But your post from June credits immigration as the 0.2 growth we had at that time as the cover for people leaving the country? Whatβs changed your view in 4-5 months?
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #12,305
Lets have a debate on immigration.
Iβm actually for immigration. Weβre all immigrants here, even mΔori. Itβs about sustainability for me. A low number focused on quality rather than quantity. Ultimately I would like to see us with 10m people.
So the questions are:
1 - Whatβs the optimal number per year?
2 - How do we fit all the people (rural or urban?
3 - if rural what about losing green space. If urban - what about Nimbyism. Weβve proved the last 20 years we canβt do urban and meet demand.
4 - are we prepared to compromise our existing infrastructure as we run deficits to fund the new immigrants?
5 - who should pay for the new growth? Why the rich?
6 - where do our immigrants come from? Do we worry about NZβs identify? Does it worry us if teachers spend copious amounts of time with children who donβt understand English at the expense of the rest of the class?
7 - if we had a static population, wouldnβt all that money spent on new infrastructure be spent on improving existing infrastructure?
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #12,306
Immigrants increase GDP by buying stuff to survive.
Immigrants havenβt increased GDP per person which is the important stat. (Eg they spend but dont produce themselves).
Itβs fake growth.
Lol, apologies if I missed your mass immigration point - yes, mass migration into a fucked system can cause problems.
But my point still stands, this is due to bad long term planning and investment.
I don't think different cultures are the problem? It's the effect of those migrants on underfunded public services and housing supply and esp in NZ - wage growth that can cause friction.
Not forgetting that mass immigration is often driven to satisfy the business community to meet, often imaginary, labour shortages and suppress wage inflation.
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #12,308
Itβs madness to invite a guest to dinner and not have any plates or cutlery for themβ¦
Agree with most of that, the planning is bad because they dont plan for their mass immigration schemes.
Only thing I disagree on is culture. Culture is far more important to social cohesion than race.
Noitall
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Gee they must have brought a lot of stuff to be credited for the 0.2% growth we had at that time that you said was thanks to them with people leaving?
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #12,311
That was when we had 200,000 immigrants wasnβt it? A 0.4% increase in population?
Seems to make sense to me.
Noitall
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But that was only thanks to the net 28,330 new immigrants who arrived over those three months to make up for the net 14,980 citizens who left.
28,330 would have to be spending pretty big to make up 0.2% of gdp, especially with 14,980 leaving
Mr. Brownstone
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Because our productivity is poor we need immigration - we saw the impact on wage inflation of not having it when we came out of the lockdowns. Thereβs no quick fixes to our productivity trends so immigration remains important for us going forward.
Noitall
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Thatβs true but a reality too is that it can have a negative effect on wages. Itβs a tough balance
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #12,315
Yes, the argument that immigrants suppress wages was exposed during the 2 years we locked down.
Chronic staff shortages everywhere. Reduced service levels. Wages went up but just transferred to costs going up more (inflation) so we were worse off.
There is a case for less immigration if that drives an investment in technology and machinery to replace people but itβs a slow, long term transition.
Mr. Brownstone
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Wage inflation relative to overall inflation is the key.
Noitall
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Not so much a wage based situation but a painter Iβm aware of quoted a job on the north shore recently and thought he was in with a good shot at the job going in competitively to get it. He quoted $16,000, and was told by the owner that theyβd found a Chinese group that weβre going to paint it for $6,000. He just couldnβt compete with him potentially making next to nothing by the time the products were purchased to complete the job. Got the better of him and he went and had a look at the finished product, and it looks like they struggled to find enough in the job to purchase all the paint required too with it looking very light
miket12
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But Labour have continuously said that their CGT would be fiscally neutral.... in other words, they'd reduce the current tax rates by the amount the CGT would bring in..... there wasn't going to be "another stream for infrastructure".... or health, or education, or benefits, or programs targeting the poor, or public transport, or houses..... because the tax take would have been the same.
Secondly, CGT don't provide an immediate boast to the government accounts... they only collect revenue once assets are sold. For the first few years, the tax take will decrease until it gets to the point in time when enough assets have sold. So, if a government was to introduce a CGT now, and at the same time, reduce the tax on wages and salaries, the actual tax revenue received by the government goes down.... so there's less money to spend on infrastructure, health, education etc. That's why the Greens and the MΔori Parties favour a wealth tax... they get hold of the money at the end of the next financial year instead of waiting for assets to be sold.
'Capital income tax' just an internal debate at this stage - Chris Hipkins
Instead, more scrutiny needs to go on the government's plans to bring in new taxes, Chris Hipkins says.
www.rnz.co.nz
it's groundhog day. This lot are so far right they're starting to see David Seymour as a commie
Why do you find that funny wizard? The violence and death as a result of many complex factors, not least of which is that people don't have a choice but to take public transport, and there are huge mental health issues in society along with a sense of entitlement brought about through the lockdowns, a sense of grievance, the pervasiveness of the fake news and anti vax looniness spread and fed by those on the right etc etc.Why are we pushing public transport so hard. Itβs unsafe and full of the crazies. Same all round the world.
Iβll keep my car thank you.
There isn't anything funny there at all.
But you keep up your own sense of entitlement, like others on here protesting proudly against any kind of attempt at societal equity with propaganda and pride.
