Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[juju]

So Labors data, science and expert advice approach lowered hospital wait times, increased access to specialist and mental health services?

Quite a leading question given the rather large issue that literally disrupted the health sector and whole world smack bang in the middle of them being in government.

Am I'm I at all convinced the coalition government can turn it around by not spending more, ignoring health professionals
with an associate health minister - who seems highly unqualified, incompetent AND A tobacco industry shill
and a health minister who seems heavily invested (literally) in private health care - Funnily enough I'm not.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Quite a leading question given the rather large issue that literally disrupted the health sector and whole world smack bang in the middle of them being in government.

Am I'm I at all convinced the coalition government can turn it around by not spending more, ignoring health professionals
with an associate health minister - who seems highly unqualified, incompetent AND A tobacco industry shill
and a health minister who seems heavily invested (literally) in private health care - Funnily enough I'm not.

Fair. But what is more important; the process or the outcome? And that probably a deep political question that splits the left / right.

I no longer care that the process is followed, as long the outcome is good. The ends do in fact, justify the means.

 

[juju]

Not really. I have made valid responses to your claims which have been shown to lack credibility and scrutiny.

You have a really short memory as I was critical of the last government and have been critical of the opposition.

I have a long memory and remember when you and your old buddy surfin used to post up a storm about Jacinda Ardens teeth.

It's funny when you try and be high and mighty.

 

[Inruin]

You have a really short memory as I was critical of the last government and have been critical of the opposition.

I have a long memory and remember when you and your old buddy surfin used to post up a storm about Jacinda Ardens teeth.

It's funny when you try and be high and mighty.

Nice reply though it doesn't actually address the fact that I have made responses to your claims that have been shown to lack credibility. Previously you asked me for the burden of proof or risk looking hysterical, which I provided. I'd ask you to do the same for these claims.

Also, please refresh my memory of the things you were critical about the previous government on?

While you are at it, for balance, give us a couple of things you think this government have done good with.

 

[juju]

Fair. But what is more important; the process or the outcome? And that probably a deep political question that splits the left / right.

I no longer care that the process is followed, as long the outcome is good. The ends do in fact, justify the means.

The outcome obviously. But what are the agendas at play and who benefits from the agendas.

There are still processes to follow and just because you won the election or have a slight lead in the polls mean you get to ride roughshod over that.

He get's bullied relentlessly on here - but maybetop8 posts about privatisation aren't wrong.

 

[juju]

Please refresh my memory of the things you were critical about the previous government on?

While you are at it, for balance, give us a couple of things you think this government have done good with.

I was critical of the way the government spent the money they borrowed for the economic response to covid.
Critical of the behaviour of the ministers (more than you can seem to ever muster that's for sure)

Considering you're the biggest fan boy of the coalition but could on mention two things it might be tough going especially when its been donors first and stripping back labour initiatives.

Chris Bishop has been vocal in his support of advocating for local music venues and sound issues in inner city communities.
I'd really struggle to see any good Act or NZF have done for the average citizen.

 

[Inruin]

I was critical of the way the government spent the money they borrowed for the economic response to covid.
Critical of the behaviour of the ministers (more than you can seem to ever muster that's for sure)

Considering you're the biggest fan boy of the coalition but could on mention two things it might be tough going especially when its been donors first and stripping back labour initiatives.

Chris Bishop has been vocal in his support of advocating for local music venues and sound issues in inner city communities.
I'd really struggle to see any good Act or NZF have done for the average citizen.

You really cant help but try and make things personal can you. Still haven't provided any 'burden of prove' ,as you like to say, to these claims you have made about me.

Once again, you are referring to when you asked for an example of something this coalition is doing to improve productivity I provided two examples that you seem to think is somehow an exhaustive list. Way to misrepresent me, again.

Worried4death, I think I have clearly made my points and I think they have been fairly well substantiated since with the responses.

 

[tajhay]

This rule still applies.

Want to post in here, then read it. Dont want to read, thats fine too - just dont complain if your post gets deleted or account gets limited for personal attacks. No warnings, only actions.

Politics - 🗳️ NZ Politics

You have zero credibility until you know what the lives you are so theoretical about are really like. If I need to see a doctor I have to go forty eight hours without food to afford the appointment. I do this often. If I lose my accommodation stay out of my way and the hundreds of thousands...

nzwarriors.com

 

[miket12]

Not sure what I’ve done to receive your ire? John Nick you can suck a dick

Good grief!!! Where's grevus with his rainbows and butterflies to restore harmony to the forum?

 

[miket12]

Be interesting to see if this makes any difference or just lead scammers to become even more sophisticated. I like the idea of banks being made to reimburse scam victims in full... perhaps if we had that here then they would provide better protection for their costumers.

Anti-scam measure: Banks set date for rollout of confirmation of payee - but advocate wants victim reimbursement, too​

Banks will start introducing confirmation of payee from the end of November.

Experts see the service as a key measure to reduce scams. Consumer has welcomed the move but says “It’s shameful it’s taken so long” and called for those who’ve been scammed in the meantime to be reimbursed.

Confirmation of payee will be phased in over the next few months “to ensure proper testing and customer satisfaction”, NZ Banking Association chief executive Roger Beaumont said.

“The good news is that banks are working to have the service available across all online personal banking channels by Easter 2025,” he added.

As a bank customer, you can expect to hear more from your bank about their approach and timing for introducing the new service.”

The service will let them check that the account name matches the account number. This will happen before the payment is made, Beaumont said.

It will make it obvious if a scammer purports to represent a bank when they are in fact asking you to transfer funds to the account of a person.

The new service will notify customers whether the account name and number match real-time bank records.

Customers will be provided with a match, partial match or no match notification.

Interim warnings​

Earlier this year, Consumer NZ called confirmation of payee “a simple step to stamp out scams”.

Banks had under-invested and been too slow to introduce the measure, Consumer NZ’s Jessica Walker said.

Beaumont said confirmation of payee required integrating different systems across multiple banks – a complex process that took time to get right.

In the meantime, all of the major banks have introduced warnings.

For example, ANZ’s app now warns: “This payment will be made immediately. Account name isn’t matched, verified or checked against account number.”

'Shameful it's taken so long'​

This morning, Walker said: “While it is good to hear that every New Zealand banking customer should have access to confirmation of payee by next Easter, it is shameful that it’s taken this long.

“International experience has long found that this is a system that helps protect citizens from being scammed.”

Walker added: “It’s been operational in the Netherlands since 2017, it led to an 81% decline in the number of fraudulent domestic bank transfers there.

“How much money have New Zealanders lost to scams that could have been prevented by CoP since then, and how much will be lost between now and the completion of the rollout?

“We think name and account matching should have been implemented well before now, and failure to do so means that banks have not been adequately protecting their customers. We think customers who have lost money that could have been prevented by confirmation of payee should be reimbursed.”

“It astounds me it has taken this long to implement this critical piece of security for their customers,” said North Shore real estate agent Carla O’Neil, who lost $100,000 to a scam (the Banking Ombudsman eventually ordered BNZ to refund her 70% of her losses).

“Along with the large group of victims in our support group and many more no doubt, would not have been scammed if confirmation of payee had been in place.”

O’Neil said the current setup had given her a false sense of security.

“I know I’m not the only one who thought the payee name and payee account number were checked - because why would the bank even ask for both if the name was irrelevant?”

David Wilson, a NZ First candidate and former chief executive of Northland’s development agency, who lost $200,000 in a bank scam, was also critical of NZ lagging behind a number of other countries.

Wilson, who was duped by a scammer working with a mule who had been paid $20,000 to create a legitimate account, said he wanted extra measures for banks to identify the ultimate beneficial owner of an account.

Banks should “stop hiding behind privacy laws, and apply the same level of scrutiny they apply to their customers on anti-money laundering and CFT [combating the financing of terrorism legislation] to themselves, then we might get somewhere”.

“Organised crime syndicates know where the weaknesses are in our banking system and target them. CoP will not address bank system inadequacies to prevent fraud. I know this from personal experience,” Wilson said.

Bayly pushed for action​

The rollout follows Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly threatening regulation if the sector did not get a wriggle on.

”This scheme [confirmation of payee] has been effective in the United Kingdom and Australia. I would like a confirmation of payee system introduced and am aware the New Zealand Banking Association is seeking to implement this,” Baly wrote in an open letter to the banking in February.

”I will be closely monitoring your progress and have asked my officials to keep me updated. I expect you to prioritise this work so that the system is operational as soon as possible, with rollout commencing by the end of this year.”

Last November, MBIE released a survey, based on data from the major banks, that said Kiwis had lost $198m to scams in the year to September 2023. This needs to change,” Bayly said.

The minister also asked banks to investigate an industry-led voluntary reimbursement scheme for victims of authorised payment scams.

“We are discussing next steps,” Beaumont said today.

UK introduces mandatory reimbursement​

On October 7, the UK introduced a new rule for mandatory reimbursement for victims of “authorised push payment fraud”, with banks required to reimburse a victim within five working days.

The UK’s new fraud rules are, on one level, a victory for consumer campaigners: make this a problem for the banks, rather than their customers, and the industry will be forced to invest in fraud prevention and share information to fight the UK’s number one crime on a scale never seen before, the Financial Times reported.

However, behind the scenes, banking bosses worry the new rules could cost them a fortune, the paper added.


The move toward mandatory reimbursement followed an industry-led voluntary scheme that had mixed results.

Last year, 62% of consumers had losses reinstated under the UK’s voluntary code of reimbursement, yet differing interpretations of the rules meant some banks refunded 96% of cases, while others managed just 3%”

Phased approach​

The confirmation of payee technology build and integration of the new service differed across banks, so each bank’s testing and delivery phase looks slightly different, Beaumont said.

“It’s crucial that all banks gain assurance the system is working as it should, across their online and mobile banking platforms and services, before rolling it out broadly.

“This will ensure a smooth implementation, particularly in New Zealand, where so many people have more than one bank.”

“For customers, this means confirmation of payee might not be available across all online banking platforms simultaneously.

“They might find that a confirmation of payee check is available from some banks and not others, alternatively, it might be available on your desktop banking platform but not your mobile app, or vice versa.”

The phased approach was similar to how banks implemented confirmation of payee in the UK, Beaumont said.

The technology provider​

On September 18, a new company was created called GetVerified, jointly owned by the major banks. GetVerified will serve as a vehicle for co-ordinating confirmation of payee efforts.

The technology provider is Obconnect, an open banking and confirmation of payee specialist based in the UK, where a confirmation of payee service is already up and running and credited with a drop in financial losses from scams.

Obconnect had at least one rival in the tender – fellow European firm Worldline, which earlier bought NZ’s Paymark.

‘Remain vigilant’​

While the new confirmation of payee service will help provide some reassurance to customers making domestic payments, banks are reminding customers to remain vigilant.

The system will not fully protect them from scams and criminals will continue to look for ways to trick customers into making payments, Beaumont said.

When making a payment to someone, it’s always a good idea to take the time to check why you’re making the payment and whether you can trust the recipient.

Banks participating in the new confirmation of payee service are ANZ, ASB, Bank of China, BNZ, CCB, The Co-operative Bank, Heartland Bank, ICBC, Kiwibank, Rabobank, SBS Bank, TSB and Westpac.

“We are joining a very small number of countries that already have a confirmation of payee service,” Beaumont said.

Confirmation of payee is one of a suite of anti-scam initiatives the banking industry committed to in September last year.
Chris Keall is an Auckland-based member of the Herald’s business team. He joined the Herald in 2018 and is the technology editor and a senior business writer.

Banks set date to introduce key anti-scam measure, reimbursement question still hanging

Watchdog says it's 'shameful' banks took so long to introduce confirmation of payee tech.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[dean]

Fair. But what is more important; the process or the outcome? And that probably a deep political question that splits the left / right.

I no longer care that the process is followed, as long the outcome is good. The ends do in fact, justify the means.

It has been a while since I was in the public service but even back then everything was process driven even if the aim was acquiring state houses
Numerous manuals covering every aspect of day to day work which must be followed and auditors that checked regularly and were feared like the Stasi.
Consequently, fuck all got done other than employing more people to comply. The only thing that mattered was that every box was ticked.
I didn't take it too seriously and simply ticked most of the boxes myself. I was viewed as a maverick but someone that got things done.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

It has been a while since I was in the public service but even back then everything was process driven even if the aim was acquiring state houses
Numerous manuals covering every aspect of day to day work which must be followed and auditors that checked regularly and were feared like the Stasi.
Consequently, fuck all got done other than employing more people to comply. The only thing that mattered was that every box was ticked.
I didn't take it too seriously and simply ticked most of the boxes myself. I was viewed as a maverick but someone that got things done.

sadly thats how the state operates. More and more busy work, less productivity.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Since the wealth / CGT is doing the rounds.

Norway’s Tax-the-Rich Drive Provokes Widening Business Backlash

Norway’s planned clampdown on the nation’s wealthiest citizens is provoking a backlash from entrepreneurs who warn the measure will just worsen the economy’s heavy dependence on oil and gas.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[John Nick]

sadly thats how the state operates. More and more busy work, less productivity.

Just doing some work for a government agency.
Forwarded the invoice and now the contact has informed me that I need a purchase order which is not unusual.
Since then we have exchanged 10 emails and I still haven't received the purchase order number.
In any other company the purchasing guy would have supplied it from the day the deal was done.

 

[Noitall]

Good grief!!! Where's grevus with his rainbows and butterflies to restore harmony to the forum?

Just two words that rhymed. Thought I was a poet and didn’t know it. I’ve apologised to John Nick. I’ve got a long way to go if I hope to get my work published

 

[MaybeTop8]

In it's rightful home - Corrupt!!!

$500,000 in political donations associated with fast track projects

The projects include a quarry extension into conservation land and a development whose owner was supported by National MPs during a battle with Kāinga Ora.

www.rnz.co.nz

 

[Inruin]

In it's rightful home - Corrupt!!!

$500,000 in political donations associated with fast track projects

The projects include a quarry extension into conservation land and a development whose owner was supported by National MPs during a battle with Kāinga Ora.

www.rnz.co.nz

Gary Stead?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

I like the idea of banks being made to reimburse scam victims in full... perhaps if we had that here then they would provide better protection for their costumers.

Thats a terrible moral hazard. And it leads to charge back scamming that happens in the US. It will just drive up costs for everyone.

 

[miket12]

Thats a terrible moral hazard. And it leads to charge back scamming that happens in the US. It will just drive up costs for everyone.

With record profits “NZ” banks are making, and then sending across to Oz, they can afford it. For goodness sake, they only following the rest of the world and bringing in open banking here because of regulation… not out of the generosity of their hearts. Unfortunately, banks are mostly interested in the dividend returns to their shareholders…. very rarely are changes made that offer more protection to their customers unless they’re forced to by government regulation or it ultimately increases their profit margins.

There’s already discussions here as to why, when there’s been drops in the OCR of 0.75% and in the wholesale rates the banks pay to borrow money at, that term deposit rates have dropped by the same amount as the OCR, and in some cases more than the OCR, but mortgage rates haven’t. Some people say that the banks have already factored it in to their lending but that’s crap…. according to interest.co.nz, the highest average 6 month term in this cycle was 7.35% in February 2024. At the same time, the OCR was 5.50%. Now, the OCR has dropped down 75 basis points to 4.75% but, again according to interest.co.nz, the average 6 month mortgage term interest rate is 6.8%…. a difference of 55 basis points. While 20 basis points may not sound a lot, but considering that corelogic said in December of last year, the total of mortgage debt in NZ was $354 billion, a 20 basis point change in favour of the banks increasing their margin, means they a making an additional $70,000,000 pretax profit to send across the Ditch. Or, putting it another way, the 20 basis point difference on a $500,000 mortgage for 25 years is $40,000 additional interest over the life of the loan.

Case in point, 6 months ago, we re-fixed at a special rate then re-fixed last month after 25 basis points drop in the OCR but the difference in the special rate the bank gave us was only 10 basis points lower than 6 months ago. In the same time, the one year term deposit rate had dropped 35 basis points.

And if consumer protection is such a terrible moral hazard, why not get rid of all of them? No warranties, no guarantees, no contracts protecting consumers, no lieu’s, no standards. Compliance with all of these increases cost to consumers.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

With record profits “NZ” banks are making, and then sending across to Oz, they can afford it.

You think the bank will let costs eat into its profit without passing the cost on? You know how insurance works?

For goodness sake, they only following the rest of the world and bringing in open banking here because of regulation… not out of the generosity of their hearts. Unfortunately, banks are mostly interested in the dividend returns to their shareholders…. very rarely are changes made that offer more protection to their customers unless they’re forced to by government regulation or it ultimately increases their profit margins.

Not sure what open banking has to do with reimbursement of scam victims.

There’s already discussions here as to why, when there’s been drops in the OCR of 0.75% and in the wholesale rates the banks pay to borrow money at, that term deposit rates have dropped by the same amount as the OCR, and in some cases more than the OCR, but mortgage rates haven’t. Some people say that the banks have already factored it in to their lending but that’s crap…. according to interest.co.nz, the highest average 6 month term in this cycle was 7.35% in February 2024. At the same time, the OCR was 5.50%. Now, the OCR has dropped down 75 basis points to 4.75% but, again according to interest.co.nz, the average 6 month mortgage term interest rate is 6.8%…. a difference of 55 basis points. While 20 basis points may not sound a lot, but considering that corelogic said in December of last year, the total of mortgage debt in NZ was $354 billion, a 20 basis point change in favour of the banks increasing their margin, means they a making an additional $70,000,000 pretax profit to send across the Ditch. Or, putting it another way, the 20 basis point difference on a $500,000 mortgage for 25 years is $40,000 additional interest over the life of the loan.

Case in point, 6 months ago, we re-fixed at a special rate then re-fixed last month after 25 basis points drop in the OCR but the difference in the special rate the bank gave us was only 10 basis points lower than 6 months ago. In the same time, the one year term deposit rate had dropped 35 basis points.

None of this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

And if consumer protection is such a terrible moral hazard, why not get rid of all of them? No warranties, no guarantees, no contracts protecting consumers, no lieu’s, no standards. Compliance with all of these increases cost to consumers.

Paying back scam victims isn’t consumer protection, because they aren’t consumers. Giving all your money Patel Pajeet over the phone isn’t a protected commercial transaction.