Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[wizard of Tauranga]

Pot black scenario....

What are you talking about? I’ve rarely criticised this government…

 

[MaybeTop8]

Fair bit of truth there but even wiz isn't anywhere near close to THAT level

This government keeps piling on the pain. I just convey the impact.

 

[Inruin]

'Mix of emotions': Police Commissioner steps down to take new job

Coster to head the Social Investment Agency. Search for new Police Commissioner to begin.

www.nzherald.co.nz

I see Andrew Coster has a new role. Good move for him and the government I think.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Sums it up quite well.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

This government keeps piling on the pain. I just convey the impact.

How does returning the smoking rules to what that have been for the last 100 years before labour, hurt you?

How does a ferry being cancelled where we still end up with a continuation of services, hurt you?

What’s been privatised and sold off and if it is, how does it hurt you?

Why does letting landlords claim what every other business can claim, which lowers rent, hurt you?

Why is returning public servant numbers to ABOVE pre covid level hurting you?

Why is taxes cuts aimed at indexing to inflation, with the governments tax take still 50+% above pre Labour, hurting you?


As per the polls, the average NZer saw things going out of whack and is seeing things needed to be done and they are being done.

 

[MaybeTop8]

How does returning the smoking rules to what that have been for the last 100 years before labour, hurt you?

How does a ferry being cancelled where we still end up with a continuation of services, hurt you?

What’s been privatised and sold off and if it is, how does it hurt you?

Why does letting landlords claim what every other business can claim, which lowers rent, hurt you?

Why is returning public servant numbers to ABOVE pre covid level hurting you?

Why is taxes cuts aimed at indexing to inflation, with the governments tax take still 50+% above pre Labour, hurting you?


As per the polls, the average NZer saw things going out of whack and is seeing things needed to be done and they are being done.

It's the community as a whole, not "me, me, me". Society. Y'know, empathy and humanity. Integrity and ethics. Actually serving the citizens of the country instead of the wealthy and the privileged.

Y'know, doing their job.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

It's the community as a whole, not "me, me, me". Society. Y'know, empathy and humanity. Integrity and ethics. Actually serving the citizens of the country instead of the wealthy and the privileged.

Y'know, doing their job.

Ahhh… so you think you know what society wants… outrage on others behalf.

Seen the polls lately

 

[MaybeTop8]

Ahhh… so you think you know what society wants… outrage on others behalf.

Seen the polls lately

Speaking of trolling eh.....

 

[MrFrankWhite]

The only embarrassment is second hand from you continually feeling the need to tell the forum how successful you are.

Hahaha image thinking that my achievements are "successful". You must be in love with mediocrity.

 

[miket12]

How many solar panels does it take to power NZ at night? For the love of all that's holy please don't wade into the energy with half assed talking points you get from the Greens.

German businesses dismiss ‘crazy’ plan to charge more for electricity on cloudy days

Companies say scheme will harm competitiveness, as country pushes use of solar and other renewable energy sources

www.telegraph.co.uk

Which is why I so interested in seeing if Form Energy can bring their 100 hour iron air batteries to market. Talk is that they could be up to 1/5 of the price of lithium ion batteries while being much more efficient, cheaper to store, no rare earth materials and recyclable.

For a small country like NZ which can’t afford the capital costs of nuclear power, iron-air storage with renewables could very well be a game changer. Plus, less money for Elon.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Which is why I so interested in seeing if Form Energy can bring their 100 hour iron air batteries to market. Talk is that they could be up to 1/5 of the price of lithium ion batteries while being much more efficient, cheaper to store, no rare earth materials and recyclable.

For a small country like NZ which can’t afford the capital costs of nuclear power, iron-air storage with renewables could very well be a game changer. Plus, less money for Elon.

$400M USD for 85MW x 100hrs = 8.5GWh. 100hrs is rough 59% capacity factor so 8.5 x 0.59 = 5.01GWh. Problem is battery needs to charge and it can only charge off EXCESS renewables further reducing the capacity factor. 5.01 x 0.3 = 1.5GWh. This is absolute best case and in any dunkelflaute event seriously disrupts this.
Further more even if you COULD get 8.5GWh of storage out of it (you cant) you also need to have 8.5GWh of reserve capacity ready to switch on whenever the battery craps out. So this 8.5GWh will need to be something like a gas peaking plant which is like the 2nd most expensive form of power generation because its entire cost and profit must be derived from the small amount of time its running.

A single unit nuclear unit at Barakah cost $5b USD and generates 30GWh 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. No reserve needed.

Form Energy set to build world’s biggest battery in Maine

The long-duration storage pioneer won DOE grant money to construct a massive iron-air battery intended to help a strained pocket of the New England grid.

www.canarymedia.com

 

[miket12]

$400M USD for 85MW x 100hrs = 8.5GWh. 100hrs is rough 59% capacity factor so 8.5 x 0.59 = 5.01GWh. Problem is battery needs to charge and it can only charge off EXCESS renewables further reducing the capacity factor. 5.01 x 0.3 = 1.5GWh. This is absolute best case and in any dunkelflaute event seriously disrupts this.
Further more even if you COULD get 8.5GWh of storage out of it (you cant) you also need to have 8.5GWh of reserve capacity ready to switch on whenever the battery craps out. So this 8.5GWh will need to be something like a gas peaking plant which is like the 2nd most expensive form of power generation because its entire cost and profit must be derived from the small amount of time its running.

A single unit nuclear unit at Barakah cost $5b USD and generates 30GWh 24hrs a day, 7 days a week. No reserve needed.

Form Energy set to build world’s biggest battery in Maine

The long-duration storage pioneer won DOE grant money to construct a massive iron-air battery intended to help a strained pocket of the New England grid.

www.canarymedia.com

While the cost of Reactor Unit 4 was around $5 USD billion, the contract to build the complete power station had a contract price of $20 USD billion but final cost is said to be between $USD 24B to $USD 36B and took over 16 years to build. We simply can’t afford that or the time to build it.

Is your battery information based on lithium ion or air iron battery storage because, IMO, large scale lithium ion storage is crap but air iron looks much more promising.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

We simply can’t afford that or the time to build it.

So you have been convinced by the powers that be.

Is your battery information based on lithium ion or air iron battery storage because, IMO, large scale lithium ion storage is crap but air iron looks much more promising.

Its based on the link to the very project you named. Also a storage battery is a storage battery they are constrained by several factors.

• MW capacity
• MWh rating
• discharge time
• fill time
• refill generation capacity
• reserve generation needed

happy to discuss any of these in detail if you think im wrong on any of them. all iron air has done is increased MWh and decreased risk factors I havent listed ie lithium explosions.

 

[miket12]

So you have been convinced by the powers that be.

Its based on the link to the very project you named. Also a storage battery is a storage battery they are constrained by several factors.

• MW capacity
• MWh rating
• discharge time
• fill time
• refill generation capacity
• reserve generation needed

happy to discuss any of these in detail if you think im wrong on any of them. all iron air has done is increased MWh and decreased risk factors I havent listed ie lithium explosions.

No, it's not that I've been convinced by the powers that be... I've looked at the numbers in terms of what we can afford. It's based on the fact that most, if not every recently built nuclear power station has run into significant cost over runs... the Vogtle original contract price with Westinghouse was for $USD 16B but end up costing $USD 35B. Depending on who you look at, because the UAE haven't released the final figures, there's a cost over run there of between $USD 4B to 12B.

The Business NZ Energy Commission determined that by 2050, NZ would need to spend between $NZD 14.4B - $15.6B on new generation capacity for the entire country. Just the possible cost overruns for a nuclear power station providing 1/4 of the countries needs is more than that. With over 40 years in the construction industry, I can tell you, the numbers, unfortunately, don't add up for NZ. The reason it did for the UAE is because it doesn't have the capacity from hydro and geothermal that NZ does.

While batteries do require excess power to charge, unlike lithium ion batteries, air iron stay charged longer (100 hours as opposed to 4-8 hours for lithium ion). Iron air batteries don't require rare earth materials. Where lithium ion batteries have an advantage is that they charge and discharge faster and can react to demand faster.

It would be interesting to see how SMR technology progresses and if that could have a cost-effective capital cost. The cost of the Utah and NuScale SMR project has gone out from $USD 5.3 billion to over $USD 9 billion and that's after they reduced the number of SMR's in half and, although it was said to be less expensive to build than full reactors, it's now going to be around the same dollars per kW to build as Vogtle. Also, the target power price has increased from $55/MWh to $89/MWh. And they've decreased the 12 reactor modules (producing 924MW) to six modules (producing 463MW). So, they've reduced the number of modules but the cost to build has gone up as has the price to produce the power. Since SMR's are still in their infancy, it will be interesting to see how the technology changes and if that means NZ could possibly afford them.

 

[juju]

No, it's not that I've been convinced by the powers that be... I've looked at the numbers in terms of what we can afford. It's based on the fact that most, if not every recently built nuclear power station has run into significant cost over runs... the Vogtle original contract price with Westinghouse was for $USD 16B but end up costing $USD 35B. Depending on who you look at, because the UAE haven't released the final figures, there's a cost over run there of between $USD 4B to 12B.

The Business NZ Energy Commission determined that by 2050, NZ would need to spend between $NZD 14.4B - $15.6B on new generation capacity for the entire country. Just the possible cost overruns for a nuclear power station providing 1/4 of the countries needs is more than that. With over 40 years in the construction industry, I can tell you, the numbers, unfortunately, don't add up for NZ. The reason it did for the UAE is because it doesn't have the capacity from hydro and geothermal that NZ does.

While batteries do require excess power to charge, unlike lithium ion batteries, air iron stay charged longer (100 hours as opposed to 4-8 hours for lithium ion). Iron air batteries don't require rare earth materials. Where lithium ion batteries have an advantage is that they charge and discharge faster and can react to demand faster.

It would be interesting to see how SMR technology progresses and if that could have a cost-effective capital cost. The cost of the Utah and NuScale SMR project has gone out from $USD 5.3 billion to over $USD 9 billion and that's after they reduced the number of SMR's in half and, although it was said to be less expensive to build than full reactors, it's now going to be around the same dollars per kW to build as Vogtle. Also, the target power price has increased from $55/MWh to $89/MWh. And they've decreased the 12 reactor modules (producing 924MW) to six modules (producing 463MW). So, they've reduced the number of modules but the cost to build has gone up as has the price to produce the power. Since SMR's are still in their infancy, it will be interesting to see how the technology changes and if that means NZ could possibly afford them.

and not to mention how deep the anti nuclear sentiment is entrenched in the NZ identity.
There will never be the public or political will power to make it happen.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

No, it's not that I've been convinced by the powers that be... I've looked at the numbers in terms of what we can afford. It's based on the fact that most, if not every recently built nuclear power station has run into significant cost over runs... the Vogtle original contract price with Westinghouse was for $USD 16B but end up costing $USD 35B. Depending on who you look at, because the UAE haven't released the final figures, there's a cost over run there of between $USD 4B to 12B.

The Business NZ Energy Commission determined that by 2050, NZ would need to spend between $NZD 14.4B - $15.6B on new generation capacity for the entire country. Just the possible cost overruns for a nuclear power station providing 1/4 of the countries needs is more than that. With over 40 years in the construction industry, I can tell you, the numbers, unfortunately, don't add up for NZ. The reason it did for the UAE is because it doesn't have the capacity from hydro and geothermal that NZ does.

While batteries do require excess power to charge, unlike lithium ion batteries, air iron stay charged longer (100 hours as opposed to 4-8 hours for lithium ion). Iron air batteries don't require rare earth materials. Where lithium ion batteries have an advantage is that they charge and discharge faster and can react to demand faster.

It would be interesting to see how SMR technology progresses and if that could have a cost-effective capital cost. The cost of the Utah and NuScale SMR project has gone out from $USD 5.3 billion to over $USD 9 billion and that's after they reduced the number of SMR's in half and, although it was said to be less expensive to build than full reactors, it's now going to be around the same dollars per kW to build as Vogtle. Also, the target power price has increased from $55/MWh to $89/MWh. And they've decreased the 12 reactor modules (producing 924MW) to six modules (producing 463MW). So, they've reduced the number of modules but the cost to build has gone up as has the price to produce the power. Since SMR's are still in their infancy, it will be interesting to see how the technology changes and if that means NZ could possibly afford them.

Unless NZ magically finds more land or develops free energy, your energy requirements are going to grow year on year, and your available land to supply that demand is reducing.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of battery power systems. Think of emptying a pool. MW is the size of the hose, MWh is the how much water in in the pool. Iron air batteries are just a larger pool. “Holding a charge longer” would relate to battery degradation under full charge.

If you want to talk about $/MWh why talk about fantasy? It’s right here. I posted above. $6,500/MWh for batteries. $3000/MWh for GCCT.

 

[miket12]

and not to mention how deep the anti nuclear sentiment is entrenched in the NZ identity.
There will never be the public or political will power to make it happen.

It's still over 25 years until the first one is supposed to be available commercially, but I'd be interested in seeing if a fusion reactor would suit NZ's needs then. Then again, I'd be in my early 80's then and probably not that interested.



Sorry, I shouldn't have posted the picture of Inruin and wizard of Tauranga

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Last 24hrs in South Australia. Prices tell the story. Love those CO2 emissions too. 10x higher than some entire countries.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Those "imports" come from coal fired Victoria.. Shall we look at their prices over the same period?

 

[miket12]

Unless NZ magically finds more land or develops free energy, your energy requirements are going to grow year on year, and your available land to supply that demand is reducing.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of battery power systems. Think of emptying a pool. MW is the size of the hose, MWh is the how much water in in the pool. Iron air batteries are just a larger pool. “Holding a charge longer” would relate to battery degradation under full charge.

If you want to talk about $/MWh why talk about fantasy? It’s right here. I posted above. $6,500/MWh for batteries. $3000/MWh for GCCT.

I realise you've got those costs from the SA lithium ion plant but, unless it's being calculated differently, those costs seem obsessively high....

Projected decline in battery pack costs | Statista

The battery pack costs for a 1 MWh battery energy storage system (BESS) are expected to decrease from about 236 U.S.

www.statista.com

I choose the statista stats because I think they would be independent of environmental group influences/bias