Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Noitall]

TBH, I don't think we had any choice but take them as you can't allow NZ citizens, even 501's, to be "stateless". Personally, I don't like what Australia is doing with these people but we also can't ignore the fact, that even though many of them have only own Australia as "home", all governments since the 501 deportations began have had to accept them back into NZ.

It’s a grey area as it’s probably only for the reason that they haven’t legally acquired citizenship in aussie that they aren’t recognised as Australian with the length of time they’ve lived there, often only born here or childhood spent in NZ. They’re more than happy to continue to populate their country with good working NZers and why wouldn’t they. Is this something we do? We’d have Pacific Islanders that aren’t here on the legal documentation, do we deport them that get caught up in crime? Genuine question. We also have our worst criminal of aussie descent, would we only not deport him back through fear he may be released earlier than what he would here?

 

[Noitall]

all governments since the 501 deportations began have had to accept them back into NZ.

Was put in place in 2015 so only really the last government having their whole term as government with the 501 deportee legislation in place

 

[marv.]

Because no one is addressing poverty in a meaningful way.
Labour did some good things (lunches in school, minimum wage increases, minor increases to benefits), but not nearly enough. Housing, food and utility costs all remain high.

i agree with you here in part.
also, i don’t know but i would imagine very few people are forced to join gangs out of desperation.
the highlife, feeling intimidating, party 24/7 drugs booze girls, and ill gotten gains would be the biggest selling points i’d have thought.

not to mention little to no accountability for most wrongdoing.

 

[miket12]

The brother of my bestman was on the board of trustees for a school damaged in the Christchurch earthquakes. While some of the buildings were able to be repaired, others were condemned and had to be replaced. Before they could do anything else, they had to prove to the Ministry of Education that they had enough potential returning students to justify the expense... which I feel was the right thing to do.

After around two years of reports and emails flowing between the princiapal and his board and the Ministry, they finally got the go ahead to start the process. They then went to the community to get their views, spoke with staff and took just over a year preparing a report outlining the scope of the project including that neither the staff nor the community wanted open learning classrooms. This was sent to Wellington and some 6-9 months after the Ministry received it, the Principal and some of the Board of Trustees went to the Ministry for a meeting with nine people, some employed directly by the MoE and some were consultants. It became very clear that none of the people from Wellington had read the report.

Although they had organised two Architectural firms in Christchurch to quote to design the buildings and the prepare documents for the consents and tenders, the MoE rejected these firms as there wasn't enough "ethnic diversity" in them..... one firm only had four staff members but a good record for designing and delivering award winning public buildings, yet, because only one of the staff members was from a minority, were unacceptable because the MoE required at last 1/3 of the staff to be from a minority.

The school was given three firms that were "acceptable" to choose from... two in Wellington and one in Auckland. The school choose one of the Wellington firms and sent the architects their ideas and scope of works. When they finally met the architect leading the project, it was clear he hadn't read the brief either as all the classrooms were open learning even though the documents what the architect had based his design on said they weren't to be.

The cost of the project then continued to blow out as the architect and contractors had to keep changing the design and building to match the everchanging requirements of the MoE.

And we wonder how a high school in Blenheim has had its cost double from when it was first signed off by Cabinet.

 

[Noitall]

A brief look at the harm Australia’s 501 policy has caused

What are 501s and why is the policy so controversial?

thespinoff.co.nz

An article from a couple of years ago but highlights some of the outcomes it’s had on our criminal landscape

 

[Noitall]

The brother of my bestman was on the board of trustees for a school damaged in the Christchurch earthquakes. While some of the buildings were able to be repaired, others were condemned and had to be replaced. Before they could do anything else, they had to prove to the Ministry of Education that they had enough potential returning students to justify the expense... which I feel was the right thing to do.

After around two years of reports and emails flowing between the princiapal and his board and the Ministry, they finally got the go ahead to start the process. They then went to the community to get their views, spoke with staff and took just over a year preparing a report outlining the scope of the project including that neither the staff nor the community wanted open learning classrooms. This was sent to Wellington and some 6-9 months after the Ministry received it, the Principal and some of the Board of Trustees went to the Ministry for a meeting with nine people, some employed directly by the MoE and some were consultants. It became very clear that none of the people from Wellington had read the report.

Although they had organised two Architectural firms in Christchurch to quote to design the buildings and the prepare documents for the consents and tenders, the MoE rejected these firms as there wasn't enough "ethnic diversity" in them..... one firm only had four staff members but a good record for designing and delivering award winning public buildings, yet, because only one of the staff members was from a minority, were unacceptable because the MoE required at last 1/3 of the staff to be from a minority.

The school was given three firms that were "acceptable" to choose from... two in Wellington and one in Auckland. The school choose one of the Wellington firms and sent the architects their ideas and scope of works. When they finally met the architect leading the project, it was clear he hadn't read the brief either as all the classrooms were open learning even though the documents what the architect had based his design on said they weren't to be.

The cost of the project then continued to blow out as the architect and contractors had to keep changing the design and building to match the everchanging requirements of the MoE.

And we wonder how a high school in Blenheim has had its cost double from when it was first signed off by Cabinet.

Didn’t see it but my work mate told me that series on the poor NZ building practices was an eye opener. The Christchurch rebuild has been a shambles

 

[miket12]

Was put in place in 2015 so only really the last government having their whole term as government with the 501 deportee legislation in place

I actually think it's appalling that we don't have in place better services for 501's and released prisoners in NZ. I think if we spent more money at the "top of cliff" we wouldn't have to spend so much more on the ambulances at the bottom of the cliff (i.e. police, victims, justice, jail).

 

[Noitall]

I actually think it's appalling that we don't have in place better services for 501's and released prisoners in NZ. I think if we spent more money at the "top of cliff" we wouldn't have to spend so much more on the ambulances at the bottom of the cliff (i.e. police, victims, justice, jail).

Apparently given the same amount of money when they walk out the prison gates from the last 30 years and told good luck. With the route we’re about to take by the looks, I’m not feeling like there’s going to be a lot of emphasis on reforming the criminals in question

 

[miket12]

Didn’t see it but my work mate told me that series on the poor NZ building practices was an eye opener. The Christchurch rebuild has been a shambles

The Licensed Building Practitioner scheme was originally designed that every person working on a building would need to be a LBP to work on areas such as design, site management, building envelope etc. The exemption was going to be for unqualified apprentices who would need to be supervised. They were also only supposed to be working to the level of the license. For example, I've got a Design 2 LBP license which means I can prepare documents for buildings up to 10m tall.

Then they changed the rules to say that LBP's are able to work on buildings above their license level provided the owner engaging them was satisfied of their "competence". That means I could design and provide the entire documentation for a 50 Storey high building if the person engaging me thought I was capable of doing so.

The other part they changed was that not everyone had to be licensed but someone without a License could untake work, even if they had no experience in it, provided they were "supervised" by a LBP.

The Licensed Building Practitioner scheme was designed to stop another "leaky homes/building" scenario happening again but, to be honest, it hasn't. There would be a lot less apartments and houses still requiring remedial work if the original scheme requiring everyone working on a building was competent and not just the owner hoping the person is or a LBP supervising someone to do the work.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

The brother of my bestman was on the board of trustees for a school damaged in the Christchurch earthquakes. While some of the buildings were able to be repaired, others were condemned and had to be replaced. Before they could do anything else, they had to prove to the Ministry of Education that they had enough potential returning students to justify the expense... which I feel was the right thing to do.

After around two years of reports and emails flowing between the princiapal and his board and the Ministry, they finally got the go ahead to start the process. They then went to the community to get their views, spoke with staff and took just over a year preparing a report outlining the scope of the project including that neither the staff nor the community wanted open learning classrooms. This was sent to Wellington and some 6-9 months after the Ministry received it, the Principal and some of the Board of Trustees went to the Ministry for a meeting with nine people, some employed directly by the MoE and some were consultants. It became very clear that none of the people from Wellington had read the report.

Although they had organised two Architectural firms in Christchurch to quote to design the buildings and the prepare documents for the consents and tenders, the MoE rejected these firms as there wasn't enough "ethnic diversity" in them..... one firm only had four staff members but a good record for designing and delivering award winning public buildings, yet, because only one of the staff members was from a minority, were unacceptable because the MoE required at last 1/3 of the staff to be from a minority.

The school was given three firms that were "acceptable" to choose from... two in Wellington and one in Auckland. The school choose one of the Wellington firms and sent the architects their ideas and scope of works. When they finally met the architect leading the project, it was clear he hadn't read the brief either as all the classrooms were open learning even though the documents what the architect had based his design on said they weren't to be.

The cost of the project then continued to blow out as the architect and contractors had to keep changing the design and building to match the everchanging requirements of the MoE.

And we wonder how a high school in Blenheim has had its cost double from when it was first signed off by Cabinet.

I’ve been highly critical of the Ministry of education after my experience from operating childcare centres and being on a school board of trustees.

The place is stacked with people that base their ideas on an ideology basis. Everything to do with them is a shambles. It’s so ingrained at all levels, I honestly don’t know how you sort it out.

They have a culture based on the process rather than results and it’s going to get even worse with the current thinking. This is educations leaky homes playing our right in front of us and the kids are paying.

This isn’t the teachers fault (although they vote for there unions that allow it all) this is the warped leadership from the Ministry.

National will be stonewalled. Only Labour can make things better but they are knee deep in it all. Alternatively charter schools but the unions and Labour will never allow them to show up their failures… pretty dire.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Labour imploding now and turning on each other:

They wouldn’t crack down on gangs because they didn’t want to unfairly target Maori.

All the soft on crime/ soft on gangs/ Maori preferential treatment is true. Glad we have a mature govt now to sort the country out.

'Bulls***': Former police minister Stuart Nash lets rip against Labour ex-colleagues

Nash says Chris Hipkins should have approved gang asset seizures under $30,000

www.nzherald.co.nz

Okaying state seizure and reversing the onus of proof is the absolute fucking worst idea ever. This is Stalinist USSR laws.

Again this is “harsh on crime” is nipping at the edges, giving police massive overreach, and eroding rights. It’s cowardly in facts.

Why are you so scared of simply advocating for actual punishment? Kill the worst, cut the hands of these guys and move on.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

So why are gang numbers up 50% under the last govt?

Must have been a pretty shit society under Labour…

 

[MrFrankWhite]

i agree with you here in part.
also, i don’t know but i would imagine very few people are forced to join gangs out of desperation.
the highlife, feeling intimidating, party 24/7 drugs booze girls, and ill gotten gains would be the biggest selling points i’d have thought.

not to mention little to no accountability for most wrongdoing.

A bit of a story here as I used to run with the Manu Kaha back in the day. I’ll tie in some modern day psychology to.

The rise of gangs can be linked to state intervention in families. One factor is the rise of single mother households and the other is incarceration or mistreatment of males.

Strong male role models in families provide guidance we all know this, so when this guidance is missing, young men turn to the closest males to them, who display the characteristics that society tells them they should have. As for they lifestyle stuff, that’s what society portrays as “living” ie consumerism.

I’ve talked in other threads about the need for extended family and how just living with a few generations would solve a lot of the problems we are seeing now.

I becoming quite tradcon in my view of the family unit, even as down to I’m not such a huge fan of rap music anymore despite listening my whole life. I’m starting to think you can’t pump that shit into the ears of children 24/7 for years, make them susceptible, remove role models, and then expect them NOT to act it out.

 

[marv.]

A bit of a story here as I used to run with the Manu Kaha back in the day. I’ll tie in some modern day psychology to.

The rise of gangs can be linked to state intervention in families. One factor is the rise of single mother households and the other is incarceration or mistreatment of males.

Strong male role models in families provide guidance we all know this, so when this guidance is missing, young men turn to the closest males to them, who display the characteristics that society tells them they should have. As for they lifestyle stuff, that’s what society portrays as “living” ie consumerism.

I’ve talked in other threads about the need for extended family and how just living with a few generations would solve a lot of the problems we are seeing now.

I becoming quite tradcon in my view of the family unit, even as down to I’m not such a huge fan of rap music anymore despite listening my whole life. I’m starting to think you can’t pump that shit into the ears of children 24/7 for years, make them susceptible, remove role models, and then expect them NOT to act it out.

all of those things for sure man. some people get dealt a super shitty hand, i get that.

i’ve spent more time around gang members than most regular folk would have id say, a LOT of tattooing and partying, head hunters and killer beez moreso but still similar in most ways.

most seem to have parents, big brothers and uncles they looked up to in gangs and it starts there i guess.
the wanting of a particular lifestyle and not having to pay for it i 100% understand. who wouldn’t love that?

but where and when though does it become okay in the eyes of a budding or patched gang member to beat and rape women? to stand over the elderly, to intimidate the public, to destroy your community and those who grew up tough like you did by selling them methamphetine?

that’s the part i cannot get behind, and those things are no one’s choice and no one’s fault but the person committing those crimes.

if a bunch of gang members kidnapped and put my wife, mother or sister on the block as they love to do, were caught and had sentences reduced because they were in a gang?!

we love to talk like poor gang members, the only wrong they do is steal bead to feed their families.




sorry, anyway my original point was why is being hard on gangs being unfair to maori but apparently no one else?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

all of those things for sure man. some people get dealt a super shitty hand, i get that.

i’ve spent more time around gang members than most regular folk would have id say, a LOT of tattooing and partying, head hunters and killer beez moreso but still similar in most ways.

most seem to have parents, big brothers and uncles they looked up to in gangs and it starts there i guess.
the wanting of a particular lifestyle and not having to pay for it i 100% understand. who wouldn’t love that?

but where and when though does it become okay in the eyes of a budding or patched gang member to beat and rape women? to stand over the elderly, to intimidate the public, to destroy your community and those who grew up tough like you did by selling them methamphetine?

that’s the part i cannot get behind, and those things are no one’s choice and no one’s fault but the person committing those crimes.

if a bunch of gang members kidnapped and put my wife, mother or sister on the block as they love to do, were caught and had sentences reduced because they were in a gang?!

we love to talk like poor gang members, the only wrong they do is steal bead to feed their families.




sorry, anyway my original point was why is being hard on gangs being unfair to maori but apparently no one else?

Ohhh don’t get me wrong, I’m not *justifying* it, merely commenting on how it came to exist.

I’m as ambivalent about summary executions as I am about restorative justice.

 

[marv.]

Ohhh don’t get me wrong, I’m not *justifying* it, merely commenting on how it came to exist.

I’m as ambivalent about summary executions as I am about restorative justice.

no, i know man. didn’t mean for it to sound as though i thought you were.

 

[Damo]

How weird is this:


View: https://youtu.be/d6fwZPcT238?si=LwygBLEBQSEmLhEV&t=197

 

[MaybeTop8]

How weird is this:


View: https://youtu.be/d6fwZPcT238?si=LwygBLEBQSEmLhEV&t=197

Atlas apprentice

 

[MaybeTop8]

Privatisation is always the aim

 

[Rizzah]

Privatisation is always the aim
View attachment 5421

Here's how they are going in the UK.


View: https://x.com/ellieshearer/status/1757081036402344210?s=20