Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[wizard of Tauranga]

Prob more John
That’s what I find hard to fathom
Fixated on the upfront cost less attention to the life cost
So more sailings per week equals more revenue and lower cost per freight unit
And faster transit times
Hmmmm

The current turnover of the existing services is $151m. It would take 20 years to pay back the $3b if all turnover (not just profit) was used towards the upfront capital investment.

Once you realise most of the $151m is passenger and cars then the rail component is absolutely tiny with a massive overkill cost to service. If you base it on the $13m profit it’s never going to pay for itself. It’s just not worth it and a massive over investment forcing huge upfront cost to cater for an irrelevant % of use.

You could probably increase traffic but it’s just completely and utterly uneconomic and subsidising a mode of transport that’s just not worth it.

My solution would be smaller more frequent ferries. High turnover/ low cost. Spend billions making mall type terminals compete with apartments as a mini transport hub where the shops/ apartments are sold to recover the upfront investment.

Containers are manually loaded but pushed towards costal shipping with a view to decreasing containers via road between islands.

 

[kos]

The current turnover of the existing services is $151m. It would take 20 years to pay back the $3b if all turnover (not just profit) was used towards the upfront capital investment.

Once you realise most of the $151m is passenger and cars then the rail component is absolutely tiny with a massive overkill cost to service. If you base it on the $13m profit it’s never going to pay for itself. It’s just not worth it and a massive over investment forcing huge upfront cost to cater for an irrelevant % of use.

You could probably increase traffic but it’s just completely and utterly uneconomic and subsidising a mode of transport that’s just not worth it.

My solution would be smaller more frequent ferries. High turnover/ low cost. Spend billions making mall type terminals compete with apartments as a mini transport hub where the shops/ apartments are sold to recover the upfront investment.

Containers are manually loaded but pushed towards costal shipping with a view to decreasing containers via road between islands.

I would like to see the numbers
Each day Southdown Freight Terminal in Auckland despatches several container wagon and bulk freight wagon unit trains to the South Island And the same unit trains Chch/ Auck.
Where the revenue is allocated for that haul task is the question
Is a segment of that revenue allocated at cost or plus margin as a revenue transfer to Interislander business unit - don’t know
The service Auck/Chch - Timaru- Oamaru - Dunedin- Invercargill is much much faster and cheaper ( today using using fully depreciated life expire ferries) than coastal vessels esp out of Auckland port and not Onehunga which is a wee bit quicker but limited by channel depth
So coastal doesn’t beat these unit trains
My memory says there is not that much land utilised at Wgtn rail ferry terminal

So yeah I don’t think leaky apartments and coffee shops at Wgtn achieve a lot.

Maybe the Nats want to defund Kiwi Rail.
But I tell you what rail works well - the road units allowed now are trashing the roads and crossing the centreline on corners everywhere- basically the size and number of truck units is too much mow

Rail is a hundred miles more environmentally friendly

Don’t know what the Nats are thinking - if one of these old life expired ferries has a mishap couple of years from now and there’s a loss of life the nats will wear it.

 

[MaybeTop8]

I have been thinking about comments by the Nats opposing rail ferries

The rail ferries are I would think quicker and easier to load and cheaper than
Using a roll on roll off container vessel.
One shunt locomotive can do the work of multiple tug trailer units and forklifts land and ship based
And I would think rail ferries are v quick to load and unload
Using a standard container ship using container cranes to lift containers on and off is expensive - I have numbers in my head from the 90 s and even then it was substantial $ cost

I am interested to hear from others why negativity exists towards rail ferries
More expensive up front maybe
But to my mind day to day week to week month to month year to year operational costs in loading unloading are much lower and speedier in time.

So upfront cost high
20 plus years of operational costs low

Basically a tax cut for the rich that they can't afford to pay for. It's also against the neoliberal playbook to invest in infrastructure when they can farm off the profits elsewhere

 

[kos]

Basically a tax cut for the rich that they can't afford to pay for. It's also against the neoliberal playbook to invest in infrastructure when they can farm off the profits elsewhere

Luxton ran Air Nz but air freight is basically toy soldier stuff compared to rail and sea freight

 

[kos]

Luxton ran Air Nz but air freight is basically toy soldier stuff compared to rail and sea freight

Suppose they could sub contract the ferry task to private enterprise
Still end up costing more long term as two sets of profits need to be earned not one

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I would like to see the numbers
Each day Southdown Freight Terminal in Auckland despatches several container wagon and bulk freight wagon unit trains to the South Island And the same unit trains Chch/ Auck.
Where the revenue is allocated for that haul task is the question
Is a segment of that revenue allocated at cost or plus margin as a revenue transfer to Interislander business unit - don’t know
The service Auck/Chch - Timaru- Oamaru - Dunedin- Invercargill is much much faster and cheaper ( today using using fully depreciated life expire ferries) than coastal vessels esp out of Auckland port and not Onehunga which is a wee bit quicker but limited by channel depth
So coastal doesn’t beat these unit trains
My memory says there is not that much land utilised at Wgtn rail ferry terminal

So yeah I don’t think leaky apartments and coffee shops at Wgtn achieve a lot.

Maybe the Nats want to defund Kiwi Rail.
But I tell you what rail works well - the road units allowed now are trashing the roads and crossing the centreline on corners everywhere- basically the size and number of truck units is too much mow

Rail is a hundred miles more environmentally friendly

Don’t know what the Nats are thinking - if one of these old life expired ferries has a mishap couple of years from now and there’s a loss of life the nats will wear it.

The extra cost to infrastructure for the rail as opposed to like for like replacement is $2.4b. The interest only on that investment would be $460,000 per day.

As a hyperbolic example of how much that is, you could hire 3,000 labourers every day to unload and carry the cargo daily from the 4 trains that use it, manually carry it on the ferry and reload it on a train at the other end and still be left with cash left over. Or charter 2 container ship for the journey ($200k each per day).

Train and technology is supposed to increase productivity and efficiency. I don’t think this meets those needs due to the excessive cost vs use.

If we had 100 trains a day it would be a different story… but we don’t. Isn’t infrastructure best when it’s matched to the needs?

 

[kos]

The extra cost to infrastructure for the rail as opposed to like for like replacement is $2.4b. The interest only on that investment would be $460,000 per day.

As a hyperbolic example of how much that is, you could hire 3,000 labourers every day to unload and carry the cargo daily from the 4 trains that use it, manually carry it on the ferry and reload it on a train at the other end and still be left with cash left over. Or charter 2 container ship for the journey ($200k each per day).

Train and technology is supposed to increase productivity and efficiency. I don’t think this meets those needs due to the excessive cost vs use.

If we had 100 trains a day it would be a different story… but we don’t. Isn’t infrastructure best when it’s matched to the needs?

I would want to see the numbers Wiz

Beancounters can make numbers tell whatever story the boss wants

You might be onto something though

Smaller rail ferries or even same size as today

Box ships as I said before are extremely expensive to load and unload

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I would want to see the numbers Wiz

Beancounters can make numbers tell whatever story the boss wants

You might be onto something though

Smaller rail ferries or even same size as today

Box ships as I said before are extremely expensive to load and unload

Yea, it needs someone with real brains and apolitical to work out what’s best. Not just this ferry, but all infrastructure, how it all interlinks, road vs rail vs maritime. An overall strategy.

To much ideology from both sides.

NZ struggles with size and scale and what works elsewhere doesn’t necessarily transfer here.

It’s like going to the islands and watching them manually unload boats. Yes, cranes and lifting equipment would be much better but when it’s the only boat this month it’s false economy.

 

[kos]

Yea, it needs someone with real brains and apolitical to work out what’s best. Not just this ferry, but all infrastructure, how it all interlinks, road vs rail vs maritime. An overall strategy.

To much ideology from both sides.

NZ struggles with size and scale and what works elsewhere doesn’t necessarily transfer here.

It’s like going to the islands and watching them manually unload boats. Yes, cranes and lifting equipment would be much better but when it’s the only boat this month it’s false economy.

Funnily enough I would think the Kiwi Rail engineers and bean counters probably cut the sandwich better than Luxton and Willis

But the optic s sound good

Look how much we saved by kicking the can down the road

 

[John Nick]

Yea, it needs someone with real brains and apolitical to work out what’s best. Not just this ferry, but all infrastructure, how it all interlinks, road vs rail vs maritime. An overall strategy.

To much ideology from both sides.

NZ struggles with size and scale and what works elsewhere doesn’t necessarily transfer here.

It’s like going to the islands and watching them manually unload boats. Yes, cranes and lifting equipment would be much better but when it’s the only boat this month it’s false economy.

A top class service could attract more customers also.Not only freight but passenger.
We would love to do that trip

 

[John Nick]

As for who encouraged what, if Labour truly believed in coastal shipping then why have they stood in the way of Tauranga’s container wharf extension?

As for who encouraged what, if Labour truly believed in coastal shipping then why have they stood in the way of Tauranga’s container wharf extension?

Iwi now claiming $100m from POTL .Be interesting to see if National become involved while slashing & burning

 

[John Nick]

Labour were too scared of local iwi. To suggest they were proactive in supporting New Zealand’s freight network is pure fantasy.

$30m is a fairly big amount of money to say your fantasy theory is fucked

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

$30m is a fairly big amount of money to say your fantasy theory is fucked

Sorry what’s the $30m in relation to?

 

[John Nick]

Sorry what’s the $30m in relation to?

Labour invested $30m into the restarting coastal shipping to take the amount of heavy traffic of our roads and create work for local seafarers .
Shipping companies like Swire and Maersk and Move Logistics and Pacifica along with West Coast Minerals and another I have forgotten have started moving boxes between ports all around nz.
Maersk have pulled out but they are a bunch of....The previous CEO of POAL was a guy called Tony Gibson who was arseholed and the port has gone ahead in all aspects. Financial safety productivity.
Tony Gibson was an executive for Maersk previously and he fucked up costing everyone money and a few life's.
Anything else??
And still facing criminal charges.

 

[Rick O’Shay]

I have been thinking about comments by the Nats opposing rail ferries

The rail ferries are I would think quicker and easier to load and cheaper than
Using a roll on roll off container vessel.
One shunt locomotive can do the work of multiple tug trailer units and forklifts land and ship based
And I would think rail ferries are v quick to load and unload
Using a standard container ship using container cranes to lift containers on and off is expensive - I have numbers in my head from the 90 s and even then it was substantial $ cost

I am interested to hear from others why negativity exists towards rail ferries
More expensive up front maybe
But to my mind day to day week to week month to month year to year operational costs in loading unloading are much lower and speedier in time.

So upfront cost high
20 plus years of operational costs lo

Rail can certainly move a heap of freight cheaper and more efficiently than a fleet of trucks. But, and it's a big but, our rail only services major centres and then it's back to trucking. Having only one line doesn't help either especially in a calamity. The Picton to Christchurch damage during the earthquake posed significant problems for reinstatement.

JIT inventory killed off rail in the '70's as there was (and still isn't) any way for them to compete on the flexibility and door to door service from trucking. Plus our gauge is too narrow for any sort of speed and means our curves are tighter inhibiting load capacity of wagons due to length. To replace any lines in anything wider would be a mammoth task. Electrification of the main trunk was probably as good it was going to get.

Those around in the 70's would remember that everything was carried by rail (and pilfering was a national sport) and you had to get a dispensation to send anything by road transport. This wasn't instant and could take a number of days to get approval which was ultimately signed off by the station master. I recall trying to ship piping from New Plymouth to our workshop in Tokoroa and it taking 10 days to arrive.

 

[John Nick]

Rail can certainly move a heap of freight cheaper and more efficiently than a fleet of trucks. But, and it's a big but, our rail only services major centres and then it's back to trucking. Having only one line doesn't help either especially in a calamity. The Picton to Christchurch damage during the earthquake posed significant problems for reinstatement.

JIT inventory killed off rail in the '70's as there was (and still isn't) any way for them to compete on the flexibility and door to door service from trucking. Plus our gauge is too narrow for any sort of speed and means our curves are tighter inhibiting load capacity of wagons due to length. To replace any lines in anything wider would be a mammoth task. Electrification of the main trunk was probably as good it was going to get.

Those around in the 70's would remember that everything was carried by rail (and pilfering was a national sport) and you had to get a dispensation to send anything by road transport. This wasn't instant and could take a number of days to get approval which was ultimately signed off by the station master. I recall trying to ship piping from New Plymouth to our workshop in Tokoroa and it taking 10 days to arrive.

Your pilfering comment is on point .
I remember dealing with a denim jeans company many years ago & the manager said yes we will use your service"".
"Please just leave some for us""

 

[John Nick]

What a clown is the leader of the house.
Slashed improvements in Wellington and says "it's not about cost saving but there will be cost savings ".
Further down the road it will have to be done.
Auckland Harbour Bridge.
Ferries.
Ak CBD.

Luxon banged on the lead up to the election.
We will get things done for NZers

 

[kos]

Rail can certainly move a heap of freight cheaper and more efficiently than a fleet of trucks. But, and it's a big but, our rail only services major centres and then it's back to trucking. Having only one line doesn't help either especially in a calamity. The Picton to Christchurch damage during the earthquake posed significant problems for reinstatement.

JIT inventory killed off rail in the '70's as there was (and still isn't) any way for them to compete on the flexibility and door to door service from trucking. Plus our gauge is too narrow for any sort of speed and means our curves are tighter inhibiting load capacity of wagons due to length. To replace any lines in anything wider would be a mammoth task. Electrification of the main trunk was probably as good it was going to get.

Those around in the 70's would remember that everything was carried by rail (and pilfering was a national sport) and you had to get a dispensation to send anything by road transport. This wasn't instant and could take a number of days to get approval which was ultimately signed off by the station master. I recall trying to ship piping from New Plymouth to our workshop in Tokoroa and it taking 10 days to arrive.

An Lc wagon loaded at Mosgiel or thereabouts took six months to get to Auckland
But those days are long gone
Rail is competitive for that long Interislander haul and large export trains of forestry and dairy product
I don’t think KiwiRail even offer door door just focus being the line haul provider to forwarders trucking coys exporters and the like.

 

[John Nick]

An Lc wagon loaded at Mosgiel or thereabouts took six months to get to Auckland
But those days are long gone
Rail is competitive for that long Interislander haul and large export trains of forestry and dairy product
I don’t think KiwiRail even offer door door just focus being the line haul provider to forwarders trucking coys exporters and the like.

Certainly more sophisticated than my days for keeping check on wagons. No(GPS) and the like.
Lots more sophisticated than a chalk mark and a hand written manifesto.
And no. We didn't have to chisel the manifest before any smartarse questions my age.

 

[kos]

Certainly more sophisticated than my days for keeping check on wagons. No(GPS) and the like.
Lots more sophisticated than a chalk mark and a hand written manifesto.
And no. We didn't have to chisel the manifest before any smartarse questions my age.

I see Luxon has said the Napier Wairoa line won’t be repaired
Can see a bit of a pattern here

The wagon cards were ok if wrapped in plastic otherwise the rain made the ink run and destination became unknown