I don't want to speculate about what may have happened off the field, but David Kirk's comments don't deny the fact there were major issues there. After the good starts against South Africa and England, the way they imploded about 25 minutes in was alarming regardless of how well the opposition played.
Sports 🏉 Rugby
- Thread starter Lord Gnome of Mooloolaba
- Start Date
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The loss to South Africa where the second half was a capitulation was the one I thought really showed a deterioration. Had some good wins but no consistency
Just did a quick google. Dalton's kid appears to have been born on August 1st, which was well before the end of year tour. I'm not saying it didn't happen altogether though (I have no idea), but that date is conveniently exactly 2 weeks after the final All Blacks home test against France, and 2 weeks before we kicked off the Rugby Championship with 2 games in Argentina.
Dalton was involved in the French series but not the Argentina games.
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Hey, Yahoo! is THRIVING. I still use it for my email.
But, yeah, truthfully it's getting boring scrolling past posts written by people who obviously don't like Trump - I don't either BTW - and can't be bothered even pretending otherwise but still post what they post as "News".
As to the All Blacks. The most damning comment in the Herald yesterday was the senior Blues player (Dalton?) who was picked in the All Blacks XV who refused an offer to join the All Blacks for the Wales game. It'd be like Fish playing in the NSW Cup and telling Stacey "Yeah, Nah, Tell Webby to go jump!"
I read an opinion piece a while back that basically asked "As a fan, do you want to watch your team knowing they're going to stomp the opposition whatever the circumstances, or do you want to every so often go 'Oh, jeez, it's THEM! We're gonna have to play well to get this one!'?" and said if you were an ABs fan and were of the first attitude, those days are Going if not Gone.
And as for the death spiral and the boring, negative game. That's totally on World Rugby. In the same way any ugly aspect of rugby league is on the NRL. They make the rules/intepretations that teams play by/exploit to fit their skills.
I think it was the right move, the All Blacks were getting some very basic aspects of their game wrong that would never happen usually. It isn't even a skill issue, tactically Razor appeared to be very poor. Sounds like man management has also been a big issue. Interesting as that was a strength of this at the Crusaders. Essentially once he lost the dressing room, he was done.
Glad to see that the new NZR chair has been decisive and made this decision early enough. New coach is on a hiding to nothing with their schedule this year though.
Glad to see that the new NZR chair has been decisive and made this decision early enough. New coach is on a hiding to nothing with their schedule this year though.
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The lead up to his appointment did remind me of McClennan's appointment with us. A coach available that had success and a coach in place who didn't excite the fan base. Articles after losses would have comments sections with fans blaming the coach and wanting the other guy. Everything will be better when he's appointed. Even if the results were better it would have been hard to live up to the expectations that were building up.
In saying that his results with the Crusaders meant he deserved consideration for the job. Besides coaching New Zealand age group or A sides etc the best jobs for a coach in NZ is NPC and Super Rugby level which he had a lot of experience at.
Similar to the player debate. They want coaches in NZ to select for the All Blacks and NZ Rugby get worried about sending their intellectual property overseas. There are a limited number of coaching jobs available. Maybe he would have benefited from coaching overseas for a few years. Coach a different playing group, implement a system suited to a different playing group.
The risk when someone leaves is they may not come back. Sure the All Blacks job is an attractive job to lure guys back. But, you also need to find a job back here first and also give up good money overseas.
In saying that his results with the Crusaders meant he deserved consideration for the job. Besides coaching New Zealand age group or A sides etc the best jobs for a coach in NZ is NPC and Super Rugby level which he had a lot of experience at.
Similar to the player debate. They want coaches in NZ to select for the All Blacks and NZ Rugby get worried about sending their intellectual property overseas. There are a limited number of coaching jobs available. Maybe he would have benefited from coaching overseas for a few years. Coach a different playing group, implement a system suited to a different playing group.
The risk when someone leaves is they may not come back. Sure the All Blacks job is an attractive job to lure guys back. But, you also need to find a job back here first and also give up good money overseas.
Interesting times ahead.
Listening to some of the articles, or podcasts yesterday. They have a camp in a few weeks. Who is going to run that.
Their captain is also sitting out the Super Rugby season. The new coach may not rate him as highly. I don't know the depth we have in his position so he may get selected but may not retain the captaincy.
Likely his assistants will be looking for new jobs as well.
Listening to some of the articles, or podcasts yesterday. They have a camp in a few weeks. Who is going to run that.
Their captain is also sitting out the Super Rugby season. The new coach may not rate him as highly. I don't know the depth we have in his position so he may get selected but may not retain the captaincy.
Likely his assistants will be looking for new jobs as well.
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It wouldn't surprise me if Silver Lake is making its presence known after a few blunders
We've had:
Looking at the board composition, it's fine but it could be stronger. David Kirk and Silver Lake appear to be the strongest members but really, the board needs more heft and breadth of skillsets
We've had:
- A messy head coach appointment by the outgoing CEO
- Poor comms from the outgoing CEO
- Finger pointing between the outgoing coach (Foster) and outgoing CEO
- Bad results onfield = NZR brand value softening
- Contracted players publicly unhappy
Looking at the board composition, it's fine but it could be stronger. David Kirk and Silver Lake appear to be the strongest members but really, the board needs more heft and breadth of skillsets
The captain needs to be easily the best player in his position and unfortunately Scott Barrett is not that.
Savea should have been the captain and hopefully gets appointed this time around.
yeah that seems like the opposite of a true story, Dalton wasn't even important to the side, also the players union is very strong, they would roast NZR if it was remotely true
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As someone who didn’t watch a lot of union growing up in Sydney out side of world cups, it seems like the play style was always the same for the north, slow and take points were you can.
Much like the nrl the slower the game is the more it accommodates to that style and union had only slowed down with more penalties.
That being said as a warriors fan its really only a good thing for us, I still think the bludger of a 23 final from the Springbok / WRU was the best thing to happen following our season.
If you look at the little photo icon in that screenshot, it's exactly the same as the one Guy Heveldt, sports journalist, uses on his person Facebook profile. Dates don't match as @Ferdie says but, assuming it's the same Guy Heveldt, it adds a touch of credibility.
* I can confirm that it's the same Guy. He acknowledges he got the dates wrong but reckons his Intel has come from multiple sources
* I can confirm that it's the same Guy. He acknowledges he got the dates wrong but reckons his Intel has come from multiple sources
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I have written a few times on the forum of the decline in Rugby Union. I absolutely love both Union and League.
I played prem Rugby well into my 30s. Still put the boots on every now and then and help out the Bs. I have seen firsthand the decline of Rugby Union. When I first arrived at my club there were 5 FULL teams. As, Bs, Cs, 21s and U85kg, we even had a prezzys.
Now…. We have 2.5 teams. (Hence why I have to play for the Bd sometimes). And the worse part, it’s only going in one direction. Down……. And my club are one of the better ones in the region for participation.
Rugby union is lead by a bunch of people who are too sophisticated for their (our) own good. The board is seemingly full of careerist pigs, who think that position will look good on their CVs. Nothing more.
They have wiped out entire divisions because participation is so low. Clubs are literally folding. All Blacks tickets are insanely expensive. Some provincial unions posted a “profit” when the got that one time grant from silver lakes. I could seriously go on and on.
It’s laughable……. And heartbreaking.
If the Warriors win the NRL within the next 5 years and the NRL expands into NZ off the back of it. It’ll be a HAMMER blow to Union. One that IMO will cement its permanent decline.
I played prem Rugby well into my 30s. Still put the boots on every now and then and help out the Bs. I have seen firsthand the decline of Rugby Union. When I first arrived at my club there were 5 FULL teams. As, Bs, Cs, 21s and U85kg, we even had a prezzys.
Now…. We have 2.5 teams. (Hence why I have to play for the Bd sometimes). And the worse part, it’s only going in one direction. Down……. And my club are one of the better ones in the region for participation.
Rugby union is lead by a bunch of people who are too sophisticated for their (our) own good. The board is seemingly full of careerist pigs, who think that position will look good on their CVs. Nothing more.
They have wiped out entire divisions because participation is so low. Clubs are literally folding. All Blacks tickets are insanely expensive. Some provincial unions posted a “profit” when the got that one time grant from silver lakes. I could seriously go on and on.
It’s laughable……. And heartbreaking.
If the Warriors win the NRL within the next 5 years and the NRL expands into NZ off the back of it. It’ll be a HAMMER blow to Union. One that IMO will cement its permanent decline.
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So could have been he wouldn’t be picked if bubs were not induced for the Argentine double header away? Though I need more evidence to be convinced, like someone mentioned the player union and media would be blowing it up, peak drama and clicks, and journos like to be famous not posting on social media which means they are not confident to publish it on proper platforms, hard to see a coach beloved by previous franchises and teams would do something actually evil like this, baby’s wellbeing on the line, and Dalton should have stood his by his wife and baby lol don’t sell your soul have a freaking spine, maybe they denied him maternity leave or something lost in translation
Razor’s record is probably sackable after Wellington and Twickenham and a meh French C team series, but given Henry got another 4 years after knocked out in the quarters (still our worst ever) after forcing Super teams to tie up ABs in cotton wools, and Foster got a worse record and survived by dumping his assistants and offered by NZRU the amazing Schmit to coach the side, both cases ended up pretty well, IMO a direct sacking with no CEO in place (WTF is going on there), not giving him a chance and support to fix the issues and recharge just screams Wayne Smith 2001, they pressured him to quit at renewal date, then he wanted it again, they humiliated him in favor of John Mitchel, who belted everyone by 50 points until the world cup semi completely dominated by Australia and was sacked after.
It’s pretty clear they didn’t like him from the start, reluctantly gave him the job after public pressure, he gave them an opening, so they clowned him, immediately
Also explains why they were so average for 2 years, player division, very “Mehrts vs Carlos” like of the 90s isn’t it when they lost 5 in a row. Barrett bros continued to be favored and waiting for Richie to get the 10 back probably added more flames. But no second chance to repair the damage lol
Maybe Webby will work better for them, but then they might sack him first time for being a cultural coach, poor bench use, favoring Metcalf, Dallin, Ford and letting Stacy do a lot of the coaching
are the Warriors old owners running NZRU now?
It’s pretty clear they didn’t like him from the start, reluctantly gave him the job after public pressure, he gave them an opening, so they clowned him, immediately
Also explains why they were so average for 2 years, player division, very “Mehrts vs Carlos” like of the 90s isn’t it when they lost 5 in a row. Barrett bros continued to be favored and waiting for Richie to get the 10 back probably added more flames. But no second chance to repair the damage lol
Maybe Webby will work better for them, but then they might sack him first time for being a cultural coach, poor bench use, favoring Metcalf, Dallin, Ford and letting Stacy do a lot of the coaching
are the Warriors old owners running NZRU now?Just to add on another scenario which I think could be likely due to the smoke, and looks better for Dalton - he's told to induce the bubs or never get picked, he said F no and stood by bubs/wife, thus he never got picked again starting the Argentine trip, until he was asked to play Wales and being consistent and having a spine, he said no again.
The original version where he caved in and got double crossed, without any outrage from union/online mid-year is just too much, could be the social media posters being hyperbolic to get more attention which is a normal thing to do
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yeah there are other versions of the story floating around, even the less bad versions point to poor communication, poor man management. Red and black country is frothing to find reasons its all the players fault, and he's been hard done by
Razor had success with every team he was Head Coach of prior to the ABs and lots of that has been credited to, in part, to how he themed their campaigns. Once he got to the Crusaders he began to be more tight lipped about these but when he won Div 2 in Christchurch club rugby it was around building to the Crest of the Wave. I also heard him speak after one of his first NPC titles & my memory is a bit hazy but I think it had something to do with mustering wild horses in North America. Unsure how one would formulate one of these & get everyone to buy into it when your main goal is 4 years away 
I'm sure there'll eventually be a book divulging it all & more
I'm sure there'll eventually be a book divulging it all & more
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