NRL Who’s the greatest player 2000 to current?

[wizard of Tauranga]

Players benefit from their environment.

As good as Smith was, he was always surrounded by Slater, Cronk, Inglis, etc at club, SOO and international level. Where would he have been if his club was the Tigers.

Moses has been penalised playing for low profile clubs. Cleary has ridden off the back of a dominant Panthers system and not transferred that form outside the club.

At least John’s and Thurston made average clubs shine.

 

[Cces]

At least John’s and Thurston made average clubs shine.

I've previously showcased the star stacked team that Johns had in his only title this century.
Thurston had 2 starting Australian Frontrowers, Jason Taumalolo at his peak and Michael Morgan, who went onto lead the team to a GF in Thurston's absence.
I think unless a bias takes over, Smith is undoubtedly the GOAT from 2000 onwards. More games, goals & Tests than anyone else in that time period

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I've previously showcased the star stacked team that Johns had in his only title this century.
Thurston had 2 starting Australian Frontrowers, Jason Taumalolo at his peak and Michael Morgan, who went onto lead the team to a GF in Thurston's absence.
I think unless a bias takes over, Smith is undoubtedly the GOAT from 2000 onwards. More games, goals & Tests than anyone else in that time period

1. Lachlan Coote
2. Kyle Feldt
3. Justin O’Neill
4. Kane Linnett
5. Antonio Winterstein
6. Michael Morgan
7. Johnathan Thurston (c)
8. Matt Scott (c)
9. Jake Granville
10. James Tamou
11. Gavin Cooper
12. Ethan Lowe
13. Jason Taumalolo

A lot of average there. Taumalolo was massive but many teams at the time would have had more talent and Australian players than the Cowboys.

 

[Cces]

1. Lachlan Coote
2. Kyle Feldt
3. Justin O’Neill
4. Kane Linnett
5. Antonio Winterstein
6. Michael Morgan
7. Johnathan Thurston (c)
8. Matt Scott (c)
9. Jake Granville
10. James Tamou
11. Gavin Cooper
12. Ethan Lowe
13. Jason Taumalolo

I count 8 SOO & 7 Internationals there.
Couple more on the bench too

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I count 8 SOO & 7 Internationals there.
Couple more on the bench too

CNK, RTS, DWZ, CHT, TMM, JFH, Niukore, Halasima, Vaimauga, Clark, Barnett, Capewell off my head.

Is that like we have about 12 internationals/ SOO players in the Warriors at the moment so we keep winning it every year

 

[Cces]

CNK, RTS, DWZ, CHT, TMM, JFH, Niukore, Halasima, Vaimauga, Clark, Barnett, Capewell off my head.

Is that like we have about 12 internationals/ SOO players in the Warriors at the moment so we keep winning it every year

I think that's 1 Kangaroo and 2 SOO players compared to the Cowboys 5 Kangaroos & 7 SOO.
If we won with that roster, in 10 years people could say it was filled with average players, but it wouldn't make it true

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

1. Lachlan Coote
2. Kyle Feldt
3. Justin O’Neill
4. Kane Linnett
5. Antonio Winterstein
6. Michael Morgan
7. Johnathan Thurston (c)
8. Matt Scott (c)
9. Jake Granville
10. James Tamou
11. Gavin Cooper
12. Ethan Lowe
13. Jason Taumalolo

A lot of average there. Taumalolo was massive but many teams at the time would have had more talent and Australian players than the Cowboys.

Trying to spark conversation…

2015 Storm team knocked out by the cowboys:

• Cooper Cronk (Halfback)
• Cameron Smith (c) (Hooker)
• Billy Slater (Fullback)
• Brodie Croft (debut season)
• Jesse Bromwich (Prop)
• Bromwich, Kenny (Prop)
• Kevin Proctor (Second-row)
• Ryan Hoffman (Second-row)
• Tohu Harris (Lock / Edge)
• Will Chambers (Centre)
• Justin O’Neill (Centre)
• Marika Koroibete (Wing)
• Young Tonumaipea (Wing)
• Jordan McLean (Prop)
• Bryce Gibbs (Forward)
• Ben Hampton (Utility)

In my humble opinion significantly better than the Cowboys on paper outperforming their cowboys opposite in 9/13 positions on paper, (my estimate).

 

[tajhay]

Re: Johns V Cam Smith, the debate is somewhat nuanced because of the thread title to only compare them from 2000 to current.

Johns had played half his career before 2000. He had already won a Dally M, played for Aus, NSW etc before 2000. Are we to not include that?

Cameron Smith on the other hand played his entire career after 2000. He won 9 Dally M's for his position, was in a star studded team. You are always going to smart as a hooker if you have great spine members around you, and great backs and forwards too.

 

[Cces]

Trying to spark conversation…

2015 Storm team knocked out by the cowboys:

• Cooper Cronk (Halfback)
• Cameron Smith (c) (Hooker)
• Billy Slater (Fullback)
• Brodie Croft (debut season)
• Jesse Bromwich (Prop)
• Bromwich, Kenny (Prop)
• Kevin Proctor (Second-row)
• Ryan Hoffman (Second-row)
• Tohu Harris (Lock / Edge)
• Will Chambers (Centre)
• Justin O’Neill (Centre)
• Marika Koroibete (Wing)
• Young Tonumaipea (Wing)
• Jordan McLean (Prop)
• Bryce Gibbs (Forward)
• Ben Hampton (Utility)

In my humble opinion significantly better than the Cowboys on paper outperforming their cowboys opposite in 9/13 positions on paper, (my estimate).

Slater didn't play. O'Neill was a Cowboy that day too

 

[roguei]

I've previously showcased the star stacked team that Johns had in his only title this century.
Thurston had 2 starting Australian Frontrowers, Jason Taumalolo at his peak and Michael Morgan, who went onto lead the team to a GF in Thurston's absence.
I think unless a bias takes over, Smith is undoubtedly the GOAT from 2000 onwards. More games, goals & Tests than anyone else in that time period

Is there really an argument here that the teams Smith played with is on par with cowboys or knights!? Billy, Cronk and IG are all better than any player from those teams who played with johns or JT by quite a large margin. With a bellyache as a coach over Hagan and Green. Who are no where near bellyache (bit of an arugment for green). There is a clear gulf between the machine that is melbourne supporting smith over the knights and cowboys.

 

[WAH MAN]

I think a players ability also depends on his position. 2 equal players, one a half back and one a five eight, I would always weight the halfback higher. Similarly a dominant forward is always below a dominant half.

My weighting:

Hackback
Fullback
Five eight
Second rower
Outside back
Props

For that reason, as great as Haas is, he will never be as great as most on this list.

If that's the reasoning perhaps the question should be who's the greatest halfback?

 

[Cces]

Is there really an argument here that the teams Smith played with is on par with cowboys or knights!?

No one had suggested that. I've just showed that the narrative of that Johns and Thurston had a poor cast around them when they won their titles, is blatantly wrong.
Smith did have incredible support around him after coming into a 10th placed team. Using the strength of the players around him to push other people's cases isn't necessary though. His team won a Prelim 28-0 then lost a GF 0-40 a week later without him. It's not like he just landed in the right system at the right time

 

[roguei]

No one had suggested that. I've just showed that the narrative of that Johns and Thurston had a poor cast around them when they won their titles, is blatantly wrong.
Smith had incredible support around him after coming into a 10th placed team. Using the strength of the players around him to push other people's cases isn't necessary though. His team won a Prelim 28-0 then lost a GF 0-40 a week later without him. It's not like he just landed in the right system at the right time

Poor cast around them in comparison to the the number 1 and 2 systems of the NRL. Strom and Panthers. Only one team has 3 players we can vote for in the poll (I'd even make he arugment that it could be 4 if we inculded the best center in the NRL era). Only one team has arugebly the greatest the coach in NRL history.

 

[WAH MAN]

Re: Johns V Cam Smith, the debate is somewhat nuanced because of the thread title to only compare them from 2000 to current.

Johns had played half his career before 2000. He had already won a Dally M, played for Aus, NSW etc before 2000. Are we to not include that?

Cameron Smith on the other hand played his entire career after 2000. He won 9 Dally M's for his position, was in a star studded team. You are always going to smart as a hooker if you have great spine members around you, and great backs and forwards too.

Cameron Smith was influential in regard to getting that ball to his other spine members at a great level. I vote him in

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

If that's the reasoning perhaps the question should be who's the greatest halfback?

I just think it’s harder for players elsewhere. Players like Slater change the way their position is played and rightfully is above some halfbacks.

I just think it’s harder from elsewhere and legendness is directly related to the influence on results.

 

[Cces]

Only one team has arugebly the greatest the coach in NRL history.

And he won his first GF in his 5th season, which also happened to be Smith's first season as full time captain. Does Bellamy having sustained success mean that Smith, & the other Storm players on the list, be judged to a different standard?

 

[roguei]

And he won his first GF in his 5th season, which also happened to be Smith's first season as full time captain. Does Bellamy having sustained success mean that Smith, & the other Storm players on the list, be judged to a different standard?

Thats why the term "greatest" is so vauge. If it was somthing as easy to measure as cups, rings, medals than there would be no debate. Smith played forever, was the best hooker ever by a mile. There is a good argument to be made on just his longevity as a player puts him above all others in the conversation. But when you get to as vague and all encompassing a term as "greatest" then i'd say, yes, you do have take into consideration the systems these players existed within. The obstacles they alone faced. The rules they existed within and the cards they were dealt. It has to be nuanced or it's a boring conversation.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

No one had suggested that. I've just showed that the narrative of that Johns and Thurston had a poor cast around them when they won their titles, is blatantly wrong.
Smith had incredible support around him after coming into a 10th placed team. Using the strength of the players around him to push other people's cases isn't necessary though. His team won a Prelim 28-0 then lost a GF 0-40 a week later without him. It's not like he just landed in the right system at the right time

What was the Knights winning percentage without Joey? Abysmal from memory. Storm way more stacked than Knights.

 

[Cces]

What was the Knights winning percentage without Joey? Abysmal from memory. Storm way more stacked than Knights.

Knights & Cowboys were both 18% more likely to win when they had their star Halfback. Johns' was far greater though if you isolate the 2000s.
Once again, no one has said that the Storm were less stacked than the rep ladden Knights of the early 00's. If you were to combine the best players from the Knights 01 title with the Storm's 09 one there'd be a fairly equal distribution though

 

[BabylonPink]

I'll settle it.

We can all agree Shauny J is the best looking best stepping and best talking HB around.