Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[juju]

One of the problems (in my view) is the Council's expansion into lots of nice to haves. So they've become fairly crap at everything they do

Just give us water, rubbish collection, clean parks, maintained roads and good libraries. Do all those things excellently and you have low rates and an effective council

The libraries are a bit of a luxury but I'm happy for us to splurge on them.

Providing Eden Park free of charge to an (essentially) bankrupt operator that can't optimise it should be out of scope for a council. Sell the land to a developer, buy some land in the waterfront and lease it to an operator that can get it working. Iwi, for example, do precisely that at Spark Arena and take a clip on ticket sales. Win/win for all involved

Similar issues in education and a lot of other things. Find out what they outright must do's are and be uncomprimising about delivering them

I don't think the council providing extra services has lead to the rise of Sovereign citizens at all.

Interesting nobody has mentioned the influence of the insidious side of the internet and social media in the role of the Sovereign movement or similar
Surely it's actually likely the biggest cause with what's playing out in that movement
A sector of society being manipulated by misinformation & then amplifying and feeling important for the first time.

 

[juju]

We could also just characterise the sovereign citizen movement as not very smart people, who want all of the benefits of participating in society with none of the obligations.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

The gap between those that thrive and those that don’t getting to much? The pressures on the struggling greater with less support?

No, the minimum expectation is rapidly rising. 200 years people settled the US with zero hand outs. Able bodied and hard working, they starved and died of disease. Now people complain that disabled people cant take holidays.

 

[defensivebomb]

I don't think the council providing extra services has lead to the rise of Sovereign citizens at all.

Interesting nobody has mentioned the influence of the insidious side of the internet and social media in the role of the Sovereign movement or similar
Surely it's actually likely the biggest cause with what's playing out in that movement
A sector of society being manipulated by misinformation & then amplifying and feeling important for the first time.

I was commenting on a segue about the council I guess

I have no idea about Sovereign citizens

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

No, the minimum expectation is rapidly rising. 200 years people settled the US with zero hand outs. Able bodied and hard working, they starved and died of disease. Now people complain that disabled people cant take holidays.

Maybe bring the timeframe forward a bit. Would you say we live better now, than in the 90's?

 

[juju]

Maybe bring the timeframe forward a bit. Would you say we live better now, than in the 90's?

That's a good question.
We don't do we.

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

That's a good question.
We don't do we.

Some would say we do, some would say we don't.

I still think the music was a lot better, but that's for another thread.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Maybe bring the timeframe forward a bit. Would you say we live better now, than in the 90's?

Now we are getting to the crux of it. You would have to define "we" and "better", but generally, in terms of raw numbers, yes 100%. Probably 1 billion are living a better life than they did in the 90's. The problem for us the majority of that is in India / China / Africa. The west has seen a decline (in some areas, still massive improved in terms of safety)

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

The west has seen a decline (in some areas, still massive improved in terms of safety)

There's definitely an argument to be made against this. Particularly, when looking at specific areas (Aucklands downtown area, for example).

I think we can both agree that the question is a big one that can be answered in a lot of different ways (Cost of living, Safety, the ability to form relationships with new people... Etc).

 

[juju]

There's definitely an argument to be made against this. Particularly, when looking at specific areas (Aucklands downtown area, for example).

I think we can both agree that the question is a big one that can be answered in a lot of different ways (Cost of living, Safety, the ability to form relationships with new people... Etc).

Social Cohesion is something that has seemingly deteriorated significantly in the last 30/40 year in New Zealand.
Neo Liberalism (MaybeTop8) and the Internet haven't helped.

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

Internet haven't helped.

Ying and yang, baby.

It's the price of progress.

For every good something brings, it also brings something bad.

 

[Mr Drag]

He was inferring that māori were stone age primitives with no plumbing, so we should all be grateful to the Romans.

I'm still waiting for the māori version of Caligula

 

[Worried2Death]

I'm still waiting for the māori version of Caligula

Probably Shane Jones

 

[juju]

Ying and yang, baby.

It's the price of progress.

For every good something brings, it also brings something bad.

In terms of social cohesion it has not helped.

In terms of NZ not feeling like an isolated backwater disconnected from the world it's helped immensely.

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

In terms of NZ not feeling like an isolated backwater disconnected from the world it's helped immensely.

I would say that a surgeon being able to perform surgery, hundreds of miles away from a patient, is a bit more of an optimistic Ying.

But hey, go with how you feel.

 

[MaybeTop8]

It’s not just tolerance for crime. Some examples:

- in the past 1 working parent could support a family and now both need to work and still struggle
- in the past that parent could support large numbers of children, now we struggle to support 2
- young people can’t afford a house where in the past they could
- our ever rising housing standards result in in affordability and people becoming homeless
- In the past we could leave school at 15 and have a successful career, now a university degree is no guarantee of a career.

Society must progress but is it actually getting better for all? I think it is for MOST but the less capable - the lower educated, lower IQ, less resilient, different personalities, etc are spat out the bottom.

It’s like being a Tigers fan and expecting them to enjoy your lot…

And what has been the underlying economic system for the last 50 years? Gee I wonder......

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Social Cohesion is something that has seemingly deteriorated significantly in the last 30/40 year in New Zealand.
Neo Liberalism (MaybeTop8) and the Internet haven't helped.

Neo liberalism a cause? That’s a view some of you will take, others will argue it’s provided opportunities & positively contributed to society. Does it promote inter generational unemployment, drug & alcohol abuse and worse, or are there other factors at play? Again there’s lots of different opinions out there on the primary drivers.

 

[Mr Drag]

Seen as we’re on the slippery slip of race today:

I’m very involved in the Rotorua community which is predominantly Māori. What I always notice is Māori are a lot more family and community orientated in their thinking and time as opposed to other cultures which are more individualistic.

There are positives and negatives to this cultural observation.

Now if we accept that outcomes are predicated by the inputs, there is no way we will end up with similar outcomes when culturally we have vastly different priorities.

The attempts to skew policy and advantage groups to give equal outcomes seems fraught and destined to fail in the longer term if you don’t equalise the underlying differences that make up each culture.To change outcomes fundamentally you need to change the people.

Do Māori want to be more individualistic (eg more personal responsibility for their own individual health) if it means losing the communal community mindset that makes them happy? That’s the only way I see equal outcomes. Or should we be happy with differences and accept we will have different outcomes?

The whole issues is when cultures say they want to keep different cultural priorities but expect the same outcomes that different priorities deliver.

Flowing on from this, the focus is always on negative Māori outcomes. But there are lots of outcomes where Māori have better outcomes that we don’t highlight. More secure within their family unit; more loved; better family and community supported; etc than other cultures. Would Māori trade this for better individualistic outcomes?

Just my thought for the day.

Marae vs Houses in streets of strangers! I can't imagine my Pakeha Aunties living all together in the same place!

 

[MaybeTop8]

Social Cohesion is something that has seemingly deteriorated significantly in the last 30/40 year in New Zealand.
Neo Liberalism (MaybeTop8) and the Internet haven't helped.

I'm probably not helping on this forum

 

[MaybeTop8]

Neo liberalism a cause? That’s a view some of you will take, others will argue it’s provided opportunities & positively contributed to society. Does it promote inter generational unemployment, drug & alcohol abuse and worse, or are there other factors at play? Again there’s lots of different opinions out there on the primary drivers.

The others arguing for it are more generally in the privileged strata