Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[dean]

It's interesting that people question how much National is influenced by the 22% of donations it receives from businesses.... but why don't the same people question the influence unions, who provided 29% of Labour's donations, have over the direction of the Labour party? Which has even more control over Labour than business has over National, because if the Labour caucus is split over electing a new Leader, the Unions get involved with the voting process.

Imagine the uproar there would be if National changed its constitution to allow the Business Round Table or the Federated Farmer Farmers to help elect their next Leader.

Individual union members have no say in part of their fees being paid to the Labour Party. In the good old days of compulsory unionism this was a huge wedge of money.

 

[miket12]

Individual union members have no say in part of their fees being paid to the Labour Party. In the good old days of compulsory unionism this was a huge wedge of money.

One of the cynical responses to the employment laws to the collective bargain agreements allowing only a small percentage of workers to make a collective contract in place was that it would eventually lead to more union membership as unions became more responsible for negotiating new contracts. More union fees = more donations to Labour.

And no one buying goods or services from a business which donates to National has any say in that either. I wonder how many people actually bother looking up which businesses or business owners make donations to National and "boycott" those businesses because of the donations.

I'd say it will be the same as those who are so opposed to National's tax cuts, they'll donate that money instead of keeping it if/when National wins the next election.

Or how many people will calculate their petrol savings because of the reduction in the Auckland Fuel Tax and give that money to Greenpeace or donate it to the Green Party.

 

[tyrael]

It's interesting that people question how much National is influenced by the 22% of donations it receives from businesses.... but why don't the same people question the influence unions, who provided 29% of Labour's donations, have over the direction of the Labour party? Which has even more control over Labour than business has over National, because if the Labour caucus is split over electing a new Leader, the Unions get involved with the voting process.

Imagine the uproar there would be if National changed its constitution to allow the Business Round Table or the Federated Farmer Farmers to help elect their next Leader.

Those stats don't show the real picture.

NZME.
National has received $8.2 million since the start of 2021, followed by Act on $4.2m. This brings the total raised by the two parties during this period to more than $12m.

The Green Party has raised $1.4m, ahead of Labour (almost $1.1m).

22% (if correct) of 8.2 million is already more than what labour receives all up and almost more than Green plus labour combined.

Then I also ask, where does the other 6.x mil come from if not from business? I assume it's from people who have influence.

 

[dean]

One of the cynical responses to the employment laws to the collective bargain agreements allowing only a small percentage of workers to make a collective contract in place was that it would eventually lead to more union membership as unions became more responsible for negotiating new contracts. More union fees = more donations to Labour.

And no one buying goods or services from a business which donates to National has any say in that either. I wonder how many people actually bother looking up which businesses or business owners make donations to National and "boycott" those businesses because of the donations.

I'd say it will be the same as those who are so opposed to National's tax cuts, they'll donate that money instead of keeping it if/when National wins the next election.

Or how many people will calculate their petrol savings because of the reduction in the Auckland Fuel Tax and give that money to Greenpeace or donate it to the Green Party.

Nobody I now does that, I don't. As an example, there are a number of businesses here owned by Bretheren. I don't agree with their beliefs but I support their businesses when I need to because they are good business people.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Does National win at all if they had same donations as labour.

You are correct the problem is with capitalism. The thing is the top parties get the most donations and get to stay on top. Would be great if some of the minor parties had money to even advertise.

Labour had less funding the last 2 elections and won government so cash isn’t the only factor.

Labour has traditionally had a huge amount of time donated through door knocking and the union movements.

Would it be fair to calculate or limited supporters time? Where do you stop? I don’t agree with limiting volunteers in democracy either

 

[defensivebomb]

The small parties

National say they wanted to have the debate go ahead with Nicola Willis going up against Kelvin Davis.

Willis would absolutely wipe the floor with Davis. That would be a good watch

 

[juju]

It's interesting that people question how much National is influenced by the 22% of donations it receives from businesses.... but why don't the same people question the influence unions, who provided 29% of Labour's donations, have over the direction of the Labour party? Which has even more control over Labour than business has over National, because if the Labour caucus is split over electing a new Leader, the Unions get involved with the voting process.

Imagine the uproar there would be if National changed its constitution to allow the Business Round Table or the Federated Farmer Farmers to help elect their next Leader.

What is the purpose of the Union movement?

What is the purpose of business (especially donating to National & Act)?

Also 22% of what National and Act are receiving is really quite different to 29% of what Labour are receiving.

We should really be changing this system so money / party donations do not have an influence over our politics. I realise that'll never happen.

 

[tyrael]

Labour had less funding the last 2 elections and won government so cash isn’t the only factor.

Labour has traditionally had a huge amount of time donated through door knocking and the union movements.

Would it be fair to calculate or limited supporters time? Where do you stop? I don’t agree with limiting volunteers in democracy either

Labour didn't win the first one, National had majority but couldn't form a government. Second one, around the world pretty much the incumbent won.

You are correct that money is only one if many factors though but it's more how the government gets changed. A lot of nationals policies will be to back their donors rather than what actually benefits the country.

I would just like more money to smaller parties to make it more equitable.

Imagine 20% of all donations to all parties go to a pool. Then that pool gets divided equally. Or 20% of all donations to a party goes to the other parties.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

We should really be changing this system so money / party donations do not have an influence over our politics. I realise that'll never happen.

I agree in principle.

However, what is the difference between a group of cash poor people donating time and a time poor person donating money?

I think this election is just a stand out because Labour has been so anti business, and used the productive people as a tax cash cow yet performed so poorly that they have build an engaged opposition against themselves.

Relabeling capital gains as income to divide and turn people against a minority group has probably backfired big time. Should a minority group sit back and not react when a party is targeting policy directly against them?

How should a minority group react in a democracy, except rallying against the oppressors with everything they have?

 

[miket12]

Those stats don't show the real picture.

NZME.
National has received $8.2 million since the start of 2021, followed by Act on $4.2m. This brings the total raised by the two parties during this period to more than $12m.

The Green Party has raised $1.4m, ahead of Labour (almost $1.1m).

22% (if correct) of 8.2 million is already more than what labour receives all up and almost more than Green plus labour combined.

Then I also ask, where does the other 6.x mil come from if not from business? I assume it's from people who have influence.

Yes, but Labour aren’t going to risk the money they receive by introducing policies the unions don’t agree with. Just for a moment, imagine how much less money they’d receive if the unions reduced their donations down to 15% because they didn’t like change of direction by the party.

Andrew Little came from the Union movement and had huge support from the unions who then supported Jacinda not because of her ideas but because they could see the groundswell for her.

From some comments I read, GrantR would have more support from the unions than Hipkins because Chippy is seen as too centralist…. I.e. ruling out a CPT or Wealth Tax.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

What is the purpose of the Union movement?

The union movement should represent employees in negotiations against the employer where it’s impractical to bargain individually.

They are well outside their brief when they get into politics.

Why can an employer not discriminate on the basis of political belief. Workplaces should be politically neutral. Yet the unions are a wing of Labour using compulsion to brainwash workers

 

[John Nick]

The union movement should represent employees in negotiations against the employer where it’s impractical to bargain individually.

They are well outside their brief when they get into politics.

Why can an employer not discriminate on the basis of political belief. Workplaces should be politically neutral. Yet the unions are a wing of Labour using compulsion to brainwash workers

AIG performs exactly the same for business owners.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

This must read article is spot on and highlights why this Labour government will go down as our worse ever.

Incompetent, divisive, arrogant, with no vision.

This will be the biggest fall in support of a political party in NZ ever between elections. I hope lessons are learnt.

Political Round-up: Ten reasons support for Labour is in freefall

OPINION: Most polls have Labour on a downward trajectory.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[juju]

This must read article is spot on and highlights why this Labour government will go down as our worse ever.

Incompetent, divisive, arrogant, with no vision.

This will be the biggest fall in support of a political party in NZ ever between elections. I hope lessons are learnt.

Political Round-up: Ten reasons support for Labour is in freefall

OPINION: Most polls have Labour on a downward trajectory.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Wait... so theres not a left wing media conspiracy?

Mindblown

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Wait... so theres not a left wing media conspiracy?

Mindblown

Have Labour been pummeled by the media about these issues which everyone could see? Hammered about them leading up to the election? The silence has been deafening…

“What good are new promises if a Government didn’t deliver on its previous ones?” Should have been asked by every media at every Labour announcement. They should have been openly laughed at by the media. That’s how you hold them to account and ensure incompetence is met with ridicule.

The media didn’t hold Labour to account and covered for them to the detriment of NZ. The shit were in is partly on the media not doing their job and allowing Labour to swing wildly away from the centre.

Now that Labours going out, the truth is coming out… as the rats desert the sinking ship.



In saying that, Edwards had always very balanced.

 

[tyrael]

Have Labour been pummeled by the media about these issues which everyone could see? Hammered about them leading up to the election? The silence has been deafening…

The media didn’t hold Labour to account and covered for them to the detriment of NZ. The shit were in is partly on the media not doing their job and allowing Labour to swing wildly away from the centre.

Now that Labours going out, the truth is coming out… as the rats desert the sinking ship.



In saying that, Edwards had always very balanced.

If you think Labour aren't being held accountable, you haven't been listening to Hoskings (every Tuesday 730am ish) and Du Plesis on newstalk zb

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

If you think Labour aren't being held accountable, you haven't been listening to Hoskings (every Tuesday 730am ish) and Du Plesis on newstalk zb

ZB hammers them as they are an openly right biased. The left pander to them because that’s their job.

It’s the centrist media that let us down including our so called state broadcasters - TVNZ, RNZ

 

[juju]

ZB hammers them as they are an openly right biased. The left pander to them because that’s their job.

It’s the centrist media that let us down including our so called state broadcasters - TVNZ, RNZ

NZME (ie ZB) got nearly $7m from the public interest journalism fund - More than any other organisation...

Can you STFU forever about there being some sort of "corruption of democracy" or "government conspiracy"
It's loopy and makes me think you know absolutely nothing about journalism or the media.

 

[BabylonPink]

This thread makes for some angry reading.

 

[Evil_Mush]

The small parties

Willis would absolutely wipe the floor with Davis. That would be a good watch

Speaking of Willis wiping the floor, did anyone else see that video of her bailing off a Flamingo scooter? No idea when it was from (I only saw it recently on one of the socials) but it is rather comical