Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Rizzah]

I need to double down on this and say Australia is home to the worst champagne socialists rivalling UK, NZ etc.

The amount of under 30s who entire lives exist via fossil fuels and proclaim "No More Drilling" is staggering. These people cant go more that 1min without emitting carbon. A friend is an "environmentalist" ,a trust fund baby, who tours with a travelling show and globetrots on international holidays for weeks at a time. These are deeply unserious people.

 

[Rizzah]

if you can't accept that the net number of state houses is only increasing by only just over 5,000 new houses from the 40,000 KO have said in their seven largest developments, your problem isn't with me.... it's with the people you shared a table with.

And for those who don't believe me, read pages 32-34 of the report below and compare the figures I've posted to the figures prepared for the incoming Housing Minister. Oh, and then think of how Labour said in February that they weren't aware that the net number of houses wasn't rising by how much they said they were because the Housing Ministers wasn't aware that houses were being demolished.

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2020-12/Kainga%20Ora.pdf

What is the issue here though? KO is building 1000s of new homes and replacing 10s of thousands in seven developments. Is this a bad thing?
You're crowing like it's a black eye for KO and a win for it's opposition, which is what exactly?

 

[miket12]

What is the issue here though? KO is building 1000s of new homes and replacing 10s of thousands in seven developments. Is this a bad thing?
You're crowing like it's a black eye for KO and a win for it's opposition, which is what exactly?

And that’s also a response last time….. why worry about built or net, provided it’s going up? It’s not the going up that’s the problem…. It’s the way the government present the numbers. Pretending there’s a larger increase that there actually is.

It’s the same when any government presents the number of new police officers they’ve added…. without taking into account the number of officers who left the force over the same period.

Or when the crime figures get released….. but the criteria gets changed so the numbers look better when, if the old criteria for working out the statistics were used, the crime figures would be worse.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

View attachment 6776

The most intellectually vapid meme, especially worse if you think young champagne socialists represent the figure on the left. but since you like simple images

 

[MrFrankWhite]

And that’s also a response last time….. why worry about built or net, provided it’s going up? It’s not the going up that’s the problem…. It’s the way the government present the numbers. Pretending there’s a larger increase that there actually is.

It’s the same when any government presents the number of new police officers they’ve added…. without taking into account the number of officers who left the force over the same period.

Or when the crime figures get released….. but the criteria gets changed so the numbers look better when, if the old criteria for working out the statistics were used, the crime figures would be worse.

Thank you. I’m glad someone else is agitating for intellectual honesty. It’s tiring since both sides attack you

 

[Rizzah]

The most intellectually vapid meme, especially worse if you think young champagne socialists represent the figure on the left. but since you like simple images

View attachment 6777

Lol. I like that you think the image strengthens your argument.
So only the ideologically pure can critique the status quo?

 

[marv.]

i find michael laws entirely insufferable but i own a fair amount of property in wanganui/whanganui and actually think its a really cool little city with a lot going for it so i do keep my eye on the news there.

Former Whanganui mayor says gang patch ban worked

Former Whanganui mayor says gang patch ban workedMichael Laws, the former mayor of Whanganui who pushed for a localised gang patch ban, says it led to a decrease in gang membership in his region.“Whanganui is where your evidence is to answer all the questions that have been posed," he...

tkr.ro

it’ll be interesting to see how the whole thing plays out nationwide.

my guess is little will change.

 

[Rizzah]

And that’s also a response last time….. why worry about built or net, provided it’s going up? It’s not the going up that’s the problem…. It’s the way the governm I'll lhent present the numbers. Pretending there’s a larger increase that there actually is.

It’s the same when any government presents the number of new police officers they’ve added…. without taking into account the number of officers who left the force over the same period.

Or when the crime figures get released….. but the criteria gets changed so the numbers look better when, if the old criteria for working out the statistics were used, the crime figures would be worse.

Sure attack govt for misrepresenting the numbers but I think it's bad faith to attack KO the organisation, as appears to be underlying theme.
Right now KO should be expanding its build program to help mop up the trades soon fleeing to Aus because the sector is tanking. KO is a key player to maintain/expand capacity in the building sector.
Yet it appears some will attack it at any opportunity.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Lol. I like that you think the image strengthens your argument.
So only the ideologically pure can critique the status quo?

Unaware hypocrites can be roundly ignored. Why should I entertain the environmental concerns from someone who has a carbon print higher than 8billion other people, and emits the same about of carbon as 1000 of the poorest people on the planet....

 

[Rizzah]

Unaware hypocrites can be roundly ignored. Why should I entertain the environmental concerns from someone who has a carbon print higher than 8billion other people, and emits the same about of carbon as 1000 of the poorest people on the planet...

Lol, the goalposts are shifting.

Systemic change requires the support of a massive amount of people, incl so called carbon hypocrites.

 

[Mr Drag]

my point was that it is easy to cherry pick one element of something that happens elsewhere, and wave it up as a success and ignore everything else that goes on in that place

Australia has CGT yes. They also are very rich and have great infrastructure and have shafted their indigenous population. Has CGT worked in Sydney? Has stamp duty? I personally have no idea. But I do know houses are very expensive there.

So should we copy Australia because they have it? Or because it has worked?

Having said all that, Australia is wealthy compared to us and taking a policy that they have and pasting it into NZ skates over a lot of factors that are also at play. You can probably quite easily tax Australians because they have economies of scale with everything. And they pull cash out of the ground. And everyone in the world wants to live there.

We, on the other hand, are a different kettle of fish. We aren't wealthy. We have opposition to a lot of things that could generate wealth (nuclear, mining, fishing, roading etc). It would be great if we could cut and paste a policy and make it work, but doing so just because Australia has it and does better than us ignores a lot of factors that help Australia to do well

We only look poor because of Australia! Compared with the rest of the Pacific countries, we are rich!

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Lol, the goalposts are shifting.

Systemic change requires the support of a massive amount of people, incl so called carbon hypocrites.

Goal posts arent shifting at all, read my original post. I quite clearly singled champagne socialists, not environmentalism as a whole. And your last sentence is wrong and my point. Change requires action. Would you listen you a strident "vegan" who ate meat and wore leather? No, cos they are a fucking idiot. Exactly like Just Stop Oil clowns.

There are plenty are people doing amazing work for the environment, but theres that word again; work.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

i find michael laws entirely insufferable but i own a fair amount of property in wanganui/whanganui and actually think its a really cool little city with a lot going for it so i do keep my eye on the news there.

Former Whanganui mayor says gang patch ban worked

Former Whanganui mayor says gang patch ban workedMichael Laws, the former mayor of Whanganui who pushed for a localised gang patch ban, says it led to a decrease in gang membership in his region.“Whanganui is where your evidence is to answer all the questions that have been posed," he...

tkr.ro

it’ll be interesting to see how the whole thing plays out nationwide.

my guess is little will change.

Need a little more evidence than Michael Laws say so...

 

[dean]

Sure attack govt for misrepresenting the numbers but I think it's bad faith to attack KO the organisation, as appears to be underlying theme.
Right now KO should be expanding its build program to help mop up the trades soon fleeing to Aus because the sector is tanking. KO is a key player to maintain/expand capacity in the building sector.
Yet it appears some will attack it at any opportunity.

KO should not be building to ' mop up the trades fleeing to Aus'. Nor is it their brief to maintain or expand the building sector.
Perhaps they should buy a forest and harvest their own logs as well.
Miket12 is pointing out the net increase in new stock units, that is all.
KO employ staff to count and report on all acquisitions and progress. The way this data is presented is the crux of the matter and it alters to suit the narrative from time to time.

 

[miket12]

Sure attack govt for misrepresenting the numbers but I think it's bad faith to attack KO the organisation, as appears to be underlying theme.
Right now KO should be expanding its build program to help mop up the trades soon fleeing to Aus because the sector is tanking. KO is a key player to maintain/expand capacity in the building sector.
Yet it appears some will attack it at any opportunity.

We definitely need a building program but the open cheque policy of the last six years led to the rapid increase in land values, coupled with a manufactured recession, has slowed down construction now. Also, these major housing developments will take up to 25 years to complete. Very few houses of the 40,000 have been completed or even started.

Worse still is going to be the impact of the new infill housing. While the new central inception will take care of wastewater, there is no stormwater upgrade of the same scale underway to deal with all the extra hard surfaces. Localised catchment areas are being developed in the hope that these could cope but what is really necessary is a new interceptor for stormwater.

Also, KO do deserve criticism…. they have rebuilt houses in West Auckland on sites effected by last years floods without making any further provision for stormwater disposal. A similar rain event will lead to the same result….. uninhabitable houses.

The reason they didn't need to upgrade the stormwater system is because the area of hard surfaces which collects rainwater hasn’t increased….. I.e. the roof, paving and drive areas has remained the same. Because it’s not a “flood plain”, as the creeks beside the west Auckland houses should be enough, if maintained properly, to deal with a 100 year flooding event.

Think of it this way….. the owners of two neighbouring houses want to make changes to their properties in an area with limited stormwater protection in a major weather event. The first is only doing internal alterations so isn’t increasing their impact on the existing stormwater system so wouldn’t be required to submit a SMA report (Stormwater Management Area). The second owner wants to do an addition on land that was previously grassed. That additional roof area has an impact on the stormwater volume and they would be required to submit a SMA report and most likely be required to put in either a detention or retention tank to mitigate against the impact the property has on the stormwater system.

 

[defensivebomb]

the additional roof area has an impact on the stormwater volume and they would be required to submit a SMA report and most likely be required to put in either a detention or retention tank to mitigate against the impact the property has on the stormwater system.

Another thing that should happen is development contributions should be levied upon upzoned property owners and collected upon the sale of their land. That way, the council would have near-immediate use of funds to build infrastructure, closer to the time that the infrastructure is needed.

At the moment, charging development contributions from the developer means that the money is only collected by councils 12 months away from titles, and often in large stages.

It would also mean that large landowners / farmers / land bankers don’t get away with a gigantic tax-free gain that they benefit from a change in zoning. A part of their profit would be ring-fenced for the infrastructure that will be needed. Also means that the DC fees could be calculated based on the max zoning, rather than how many dwellings are actually built.

 

[miket12]

Another thing that should happen is development contributions should be levied upon upzoned property owners and collected upon the sale of their land. That way, the council would have near-immediate use of funds to build infrastructure, closer to the time that the infrastructure is needed.

At the moment, charging development contributions from the developer means that the money is only collected by councils 12 months away from titles, and often in large stages.

It would also mean that large landowners / farmers / land bankers don’t get away with a gigantic tax-free gain that they benefit from a change in zoning. A part of their profit would be ring-fenced for the infrastructure that will be needed. Also means that the DC fees could be calculated based on the max zoning, rather than how many dwellings are actually built.

I've mentioned before on here how, within a few months of the announcement of Flat Bush being rezoned from Rural to Residential, the husband of an ARC councilor brought a large block of land beside Murphy's Bush because he knew how much more valuable the land would become when the zoning change was announced. The previous owners tried to go through the courts to get more money but the judge ruled against them saying that they had agreed on a price and that it had been suggested years before that the area should become residential.

 

[Rizzah]

KO should not be building to ' mop up the trades fleeing to Aus'. Nor is it their brief to maintain or expand the building sector.
Perhaps they should buy a forest and harvest their own logs as well.
Miket12 is pointing out the net increase in new stock units, that is all.
KO employ staff to count and report on all acquisitions and progress. The way this data is presented is the crux of the matter and it alters to suit the narrative from time to time.

Lol, that is basically all the govt should be doing outside of social investment (health, education etc). Expanding the productive capacity of the country. That is how you sustain economic growth.
Fucking hell, we have a housing shortage (incl social). We have a building sector tanking (builders will leave). If the govt wants to retain sector capacity it should increase it's build program to retain the workforce.

 

[Rizzah]

Just as the govt should be increasing it's deficit during a recession.

 

[dean]

Lol, that is basically all the govt should be doing outside of social investment (health, education etc). Expanding the productive capacity of the country. That is how you sustain economic growth.
Fucking hell, we have a housing shortage (incl social). We have a building sector tanking (builders will leave). If the govt wants to retain sector capacity it should increase it's build program to retain the workforce.

You don't understand the nature of the industry, that is obvious.
KO don't employ tradesmen, they manage contracts.
Building contractors are mostly self employed, not many builders are on wages anymore.
Developers are not contractors, they tender the job out, usually split between construction and civil.
What do you think would happen if somehow KO conjured up work to stop builders leaving for higher income in Australia? Answer, it would push up rates here as a shortage would occur for private sector work.
Planning for work on their own land is years in the making, they don't have a portfolio of consented projects waiting to address the ebb and flow of the labour market.