I thought he was making progress correctly identifying that there are no far left countries to point to as this successful utopia. Its taken a fair while but he has finally got there.Why doesn’t anyone live under far left? Because you would end up like Wellington with rainbow toilets… and sewage running down your streets. Why is the world far right? Because it’s delivered the best standard of living ever, most peaceful, longest living, lowest poverty levels. Facts.
Of course you accept these basic facts because it would destroy your whole ideological basis.
Things like equality - the right believe in equality of opportunity. These left believe in equality of outcome. These are fundamental differences. We want the same things but your way runs into hard limits. Human nature.
Check out the documentary Reversal of Fortune - about a homeless man give $100k… and broke again in 6 months. Human nature.
The right understand this. The far left live in a utopia. Fair enough. But then to say the right have no moral compass because they want the same outcome but live in reality, just exposes your lefty moral outrage that is the whole issue
Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics
- Thread starter wizard of Tauranga
- Start date
Wow.Why doesn’t anyone live under far left? Because you would end up like Wellington with rainbow toilets… and sewage running down your streets. Why is the world far right? Because it’s delivered the best standard of living ever, most peaceful, longest living, lowest poverty levels. Facts.
Of course you accept these basic facts because it would destroy your whole ideological basis.
Things like equality - the right believe in equality of opportunity. These left believe in equality of outcome. These are fundamental differences. We want the same things but your way runs into hard limits. Human nature.
Check out the documentary Reversal of Fortune - about a homeless man give $100k… and broke again in 6 months. Human nature.
The right understand this. The far left live in a utopia. Fair enough. But then to say the right have no moral compass because they want the same outcome but live in reality, just exposes your lefty moral outrage that is the whole issue
You have the most insane view on the world ever.
I'd rather live in a socialist country than America....
No one said anything about utopia. What I'm pointing out is obvious to everyone apart from a small group on here it seems.
Cool, are you currently living in America?
What's that got to do with the price of tea in china
This is just incoherent dribble.Why doesn’t anyone live under far left? Because you would end up like Wellington with rainbow toilets… and sewage running down your streets. Why is the world far right? Because it’s delivered the best standard of living ever, most peaceful, longest living, lowest poverty levels. Facts.
Of course you accept these basic facts because it would destroy your whole ideological basis.
Things like equality - the right believe in equality of opportunity. These left believe in equality of outcome. These are fundamental differences. We want the same things but your way runs into hard limits. Human nature.
Check out the documentary Reversal of Fortune - about a homeless man give $100k… and broke again in 6 months. Human nature.
The right understand this. The far left live in a utopia. Fair enough. But then to say the right have no moral compass because they want the same outcome but live in reality, just exposes your lefty moral outrage that is the whole issue
What's it got to do with the NZ politics thread
Great interview, pity Goff wasn't this strong when he was in power
View: https://www.facebook.com/reel/910149421602649
View: https://www.facebook.com/reel/910149421602649
Cces
🎯
"Let's compare Norway and the USA across your specific criteria: standard of living, peace, life expectancy, and poverty. The short answer is that Norway consistently outperforms the USA in all these areas, often by a significant margin, due to its robust welfare model.
Here’s a detailed, point-by-point breakdown:
1. Standard of Living (A Broad Measure)
· Norway: Consistently ranks in the top 3 on the UN Human Development Index (HDI), which combines income, education, and life expectancy. It offers universal healthcare, free higher education, extensive paid parental leave (approx. 49 weeks at full pay), and strong worker protections. The work-life balance is excellent, with ample vacation time.
· USA: Ranks high on the HDI (20th in 2023/24), primarily due to its high GDP per capita. However, this wealth is unevenly distributed. Standard of living is highly dependent on income, employer, and location. Key elements like healthcare, education, and childcare are expensive and privately funded for most, creating significant financial stress.
Verdict: Norway wins decisively. Its model provides a high, stable, and secure floor for all citizens.
2. Most Peaceful
· Norway: Consistently in the top 10 of the Global Peace Index (GPI). It has low levels of violent crime, no international conflicts, high social trust, and stable political institutions.
· USA: Ranks much lower on the GPI (131st out of 163 in 2024). The score is pulled down by high levels of violent crime, a high incarceration rate, significant political polarization, substantial military spending, and a high number of firearms per capita.
Verdict: Norway is far more peaceful. The USA faces significant internal societal challenges that impact its peacefulness score.
3. Longest Living (Life Expectancy)
· Norway: Life expectancy is 83.0 years (2023 data, World Bank). This is among the highest in the world, supported by universal healthcare, a healthy diet, an active lifestyle, and low inequality.
· USA: Life expectancy is 77.5 years (2022 data, World Bank). This is the lowest among major developed economies and has recently declined due to "deaths of despair" (drug overdoses, suicide, alcohol-related diseases), obesity, and a fragmented healthcare system that leaves many without adequate preventative care.
Verdict: Norway wins. The gap of over 5.5 years is dramatic and highlights systemic differences in public health.
4. Lowest Poverty Levels
· Norway: Uses a relative poverty measure (earning less than 50% of median income). By this measure, its poverty rate is very low (~6-8%). Its strong social safety net (unemployment benefits, child benefits, pensions) effectively prevents severe material deprivation and homelessness.
· USA: Uses an absolute poverty measure (a fixed income threshold). Its official poverty rate is around 11.5% (2022). However, many analysts argue this understates the problem due to high costs (like medical bills). The U.S. has much higher rates of deep poverty, homelessness, and food insecurity. The lack of a strong universal safety net means financial shocks can be catastrophic.
Verdict: Norway wins. Its welfare state is designed to minimize poverty and economic insecurity.
Key Differences Underlying the Results:
· Model: Norway is a social democratic welfare state with high taxes (VAT ~25%, income tax ~22-38%+), which fund extensive public services. The US is a liberal market economy with lower overall taxes (but complex), favoring private provision and individual responsibility.
· Inequality: Norway has one of the world's lowest levels of income inequality (Gini coefficient ~0.26). The USA has one of the highest among developed nations (Gini ~0.40+). This inequality drives many of the outcome differences.
· Individualism vs. Collectivism: American culture emphasizes individual liberty and self-reliance. Norwegian culture emphasizes societal trust, collective responsibility, and "Janteloven" (a social norm discouraging standing out), which supports high-revenue, high-service systems.
Conclusion: Who Wins?
For the metrics you asked about—standard of living, peace, longevity, and low poverty—Norway is the clear winner.
However, the "better" choice for an individual depends on their values:
· Choose Norway if you prioritize security, equality, work-life balance, and universal public services over higher potential take-home pay. Success here means a stable, high-quality life for everyone.
· Choose the USA if you prioritize higher potential earnings (for skilled professionals), lower consumption taxes, a culture of entrepreneurial risk-taking, and a wider variety of lifestyle/climate choices. You accept higher inequality and personal responsibility for your healthcare, education, and retirement.
Norway provides a safer, more predictable, and equitable path to a high quality of life. The USA offers more economic upside for the successful but with far greater risks and less security for the average person."
Conflating rainbow toilets and the sewage problem is a stretch even for you. It was caused by the exceptional wet weather down there.
And the sewage? Neoliberalist ideology enforced privatisation resulting in Veolia profit stripping and under investing
Nah, the sewage was caused by poor infrastructure investment by both sides of the political spectrum.
That's what privatisation is supposed to solve though right? Private investment? (that's sarcasm btw
)
2022: French company kept $17m wastewater contract despite multiple failures
Despite multiple failures – including untreated sewage polluting a popular swimming beach – the company running Wellington’s four wastewater treatment plants is keeping its multi-...
wellington.scoop.co.nz
And yes, underinvestment is rife on both sides, exacerbated by privatisation and it's gotten far worse with the ideological straitjacket of neoliberalism imposed
Norway is an ethnically homogeneous petrostate run by a monarchy, not dissimilar to UAE. No wonder it was successful.
UAE has extensive social welfare systems in place for Emiratis, far more generous than Norways programs.
- Thread starter
- #22,437
Quality debate. All very good points. Something to think about though:
Norway is successful because of oil money making GdP per capita 20-30% better off. It hit the golden jackpot which puts an * beside them as a test of their model delivering for the people.
The USA literally pours huge sums into defence and world wide objectives that could be argued would benefit their own citizens if that money wasn't wasted. The US people aren’t a fair model either as they have paid for its global objectives.
However overall I agree with your point. Social investment in the citizens pays off and most on here are pro a mixed model. Great thriving economy delivering a strong social sector - health, education and safety net.
The far left our friend fights for, which in his own worlds there are no countries at the moment goes way to far one beyond Norway and the history of communism is repeated failure and lower standard of living for the citizens.
Plus I was advocating for the entire current world vs any time in the past. We live off the back of record technology, science and engineering breakthroughs that I'm thankful the US has contributed greatly towards for the world. As much as we prefer our lifestyle here, there’s no denying the pure US capitalism version, which is uniquely the fiercest example of survival of the fittest, has delivered for all of humanity. This can be confirmed by its disproportionate share of global tech companies; patents given, inventions made, Nobel Prizes (science & economics), Turing Awards (computing), Lasker Awards (medicine), etc.
Norway (and us) has undoubtedly benefitted off the back of the US contribution to medicine, tech, science, etc.
- Thread starter
- #22,438
Is it just my feeds or are attacks on speed cameras becoming more prevalent? 3 in the past week.
The rise of civil disobedience is the first sign that the government has overstepped the mark and the peasants are revolting!
The rise of civil disobedience is the first sign that the government has overstepped the mark and the peasants are revolting!
Nationalising the O&G industry was the smartest move they ever made since old Harald Bluetooth was in charge.
Slightly left of centre but if you go there, you'll understand why. Not too many sitcoms on their tv and wintering over in Stavanger is not for the faint hearted.
