Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

defensivebomb · Sep 5, 2023

policy-wise, both Labour and National are both going pretty centrist.

I won’t be expecting revolutionary change under National. What I am expecting though is that hard-earned taxpayer money isn’t sprayed around like a free credit card, and secondly, when it is spent that it actually delivers some results.

And education. Someone really has to turn that ship around

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Evil_Mush · Sep 5, 2023

Not sure what the pattern around the world has been so far, but wouldn't be surprised if most governments that oversaw the covid/lockdowns/mandates period and subsequent economic/social fallout get voted out in their next election cycle.

Inruin · Sep 5, 2023

Evil_Mush said:
Not sure what the pattern around the world has been so far, but wouldn't be surprised if most governments that oversaw the covid/lockdowns/mandates period and subsequent economic/social fallout get voted out in their next election cycle.

Banana skin election?

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Noitall · Sep 5, 2023

John Nick said:
From my perspective I would love to think this twit would be able to fix the economy health education etc etc.
Judging by his right hand lady on Q & A on Sunday don't expect anything different.
She made a complete f up of her own taxation policy.
She has similar qualifications as Robertson basically and the right have been critical of him for the last few years.
If Luxon was not up to the job she's the next cab on the rank

She was woeful, basing her projections on trust me. On the two political shows I watched, I thought Hipkins certainly was stronger, especially on newshub nation. Seems across everything and can provide an answer. I think the debates are going to show luxon up for his lack of political background.

John Nick · Sep 5, 2023

Noitall said:
She was woeful, basing her projections on trust me. On the two political shows I watched, I thought Hipkins certainly was stronger, especially on newshub nation. Seems across everything and can provide an answer. I think the debates are going to show luxon up for his lack of political background.

Nationals election to lose imo.
However the problem is the major policies don't stand up to scrutiny and the MSN seem reluctant to question them.
I believe the TV political debates are going to be moderated by JMM.
NRL have referee issues but this is completely unacceptable

wizard of Tauranga · Sep 5, 2023

John Nick said:
Nationals election to lose imo.
However the problem is the major policies don't stand up to scrutiny and the MSN seem reluctant to question them.
I believe the TV political debates are going to be moderated by JMM.
NRL have referee issues but this is completely unacceptable

The problem for Labour is they have the history of policies being a disasters for 6 years so them questioning Nationals competency is laughable.

It seems you can be as incompetent as you like as long as you have a smooth talking front man?

Labour have overseen crisis in the economy, health, education, crime, cost of living, etc and now dare to question if National can implement policies? If I was Hipkins I would resign and plead with Luxon to sort out my mess!

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defensivebomb · Sep 5, 2023

Noitall said:
Hipkins certainly was stronger, especially on newshub nation. Seems across everything and can provide an answer. I think the debates are going to show luxon up for his lack of political background.

That's a major problem with Luxon, but also with Hipkins

Smooth political operators like Hipkins and Adern have managed to swiftly provide an answer or a retort. Oftentimes incorrectly - I remember during covid, there were times that Hipkins made statements from the podium of truth that were completely incorrect, but sounded convincing at the time. e.g. "yes, we are testing all frontline workers" when in fact, they clearly weren't, as well as constantly referring to our unemployment rate being "at record lows" - which it isn't. Hipkins is pretty good at being convincing. Which in some cases is a shame.

Luxon, on the other hand, is like an executive chairman. He isn't across the details and he looks like he'd rather skirt a question than fire out a quick white lie

I agree that the debates will leave Luxon exposed.

Which, in my view, is a shame as we've paid the price of electing six years of good talkers

wizard of Tauranga · Sep 5, 2023

Evil_Mush said:
Not sure what the pattern around the world has been so far, but wouldn't be surprised if most governments that oversaw the covid/lockdowns/mandates period and subsequent economic/social fallout get voted out in their next election cycle.

I believe this is partly true. But we have amongst the worse current account deficit in the world, amongst the highest sticky inflation, highest increase in debt as a % of GDP, the only economy forecast to be in recession next year, etc etc. By all measures we have performed terribly.

Everyone else voted their leaders out and yet Labour still has relatively high support in the polls.

I sometime question if democracy is broken in this country. If the saying is you get what you vote for and half the country is simply ignorant as we become a 3rd world banana republic, then that is what we are destined to become

Solutions? It’s all to hard, let’s vote for that politician says up the Wahs well

John Nick · Sep 5, 2023

wizards rage said:
The problem for Labour is they have the history of policies being a disasters for 6 years so them questioning Nationals competency is laughable.

It seems you can be as incompetent as you like as long as you have a smooth talking front man?

Labour have overseen crisis in the economy, health, education, crime, cost of living, etc and now dare to question if National can implement policies? If I was Hipkins I would resign and plead with Luxon to sort out my mess!

I wasn't commenting on behalf of the labour party but as an undecided voter.
I think labour has had its time but the tax policy of the national party is fanciful at best.
The lack of kickback by this forums right wingers suggests the same

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wizard of Tauranga · Sep 5, 2023

John Nick said:
I wasn't commenting on behalf of the labour party but as an undecided voter.
I think labour has had its time but the tax policy of the national party is fanciful at best

How can Labour increase govt spending by 9% per year every year while in government, well above the rate of inflation and get worse outcomes in all areas?

Really think about how that’s possible?

Increases in spending above inflation should have resulted in big improvements in health, education, infrastructure and poverty, but they simply have not got results. They would still be in govt in Nov if they had.

They have committed us to $70b per year in new spending that is not delivering any results and people wonder about a few $100m that might not eventuate in Nationals tax policy? Chicken feed compared to Labours money splash.

National haven’t said it because they would be attacked, but there is about $30b billion in waste spending to trim if they took government spending back to the rate of inflation under Labour. And they would still be able to deliver all the front line services if they were managed properly.

Labour needing more tax is a con job. Nationals tax cuts being unaffordable is simply political gamesmanship.

John Nick · Sep 5, 2023

wizards rage said:
$100m

A few $100m. So are you saying that the taxation policy is fanciful also.
I will keep looking thanks

Inruin · Sep 5, 2023

wizards rage said:
I sometime question if democracy is broken in this country. If the saying is you get what you vote for and half the country is simply ignorant as we become a 3rd world banana skin republic, then that is what we are destined to become

fixed that for you

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defensivebomb · Sep 5, 2023

John Nick said:
I wasn't commenting on behalf of the labour party but as an undecided voter.
I think labour has had its time but the tax policy of the national party is fanciful at best.
The lack of kickback by this forums right wingers suggests the same

I'll assume I am one of those "right wingers". Though I wouldn't describe myself as such

I haven't kicked back on National's tax policy mainly because for me, elections are about both policy and credibility

I've put a line through Labour and Grant and long time ago. Their policies are ho-hum but they clearly have 6 years of all spend and no results. I would have loved to travel on a tram to the airport earlier this year, or use the Skypath, or for NZ to have better mental health, or cure child poverty, or 100,000 more houses, etc. Lovely ideas. But zero delivery. In fact, they will be leaving NZ a worse place than when they came to power. There is no better demonstration of that than the mandate they earned in 2020, and the neverending pit of covid money they've spent, have both resulted in worse outcomes across the board.

National's policies are OK. Nothing incredible but plenty of things that are in the right direction. There are some things that are obvious winners and others that are a bit of a stretch, which I understand is what you are referring to. I am willing to overlook those as on balance, they are correct that the country is on the wrong track and that we need to pull back on the spending, and make it more targeted, and have measurable outcomes. This is far preferable for me than the status quo, or for the loony policies of the Greens. TPM don't get my vote as I am not māori and don't like different rights for different races.

A good example of credibility and intent was last week's announcement of taxation on overseas gambling websites. Will it be $179m, as announced, or a lesser amount? Nobody really knows for sure. What I do know is that it isn't being taxed now, and National is looking around for easy loopholes to close. Kieran McAnulty's response - "I don't think it will be that high and we are already looking doing some stuff around that". I've got an idea for McAnulty - instead of keeping the seat warm and reassuring stuff's happening, how about he actually does it

Inruin · Sep 5, 2023

wizards rage said:
How can Labour increase govt spending by 9% per year every year while in government, well above the rate of inflation and get worse outcomes in all areas?

Really think about how that’s possible?

Increases in spending above inflation should have resulted in big improvements in health, education, infrastructure and poverty, but they simply have not got results. They would still be in govt in Nov if they had.

They have committed us to $70b per year in new spending that is not delivering any results and people wonder about a few $100m that might not eventuate in Nationals tax policy? Chicken feed compared to Labours money splash.

National haven’t said it because they would be attacked, but there is about $30b billion in waste spending to trim if they took government spending back to the rate of inflation under Labour. And they would still be able to deliver all the front line services if they were managed properly.

Labour needing more tax is a con job. Nationals tax cuts being unaffordable is simply political gamesmanship.

And dont forget their answer is to remove GST off fruit and vege, and increase fuel tax by more than that. Seriously cant understand apparent 'undecided' voters quibbling over whether Nationals policy is completely accounted for. I would suggest no parties policies are completely accounted for and that Nationals policy will deliver more for the people than a net worse off Labour policy.

Also, Labour have managed to find $4billion in savings (which isnt that difficult and should be a lot more considering the spendathon going on)

So, the reality is that their spending has been way more than fanciful for a long time now - and not targeted or delivering any results. No accountability.

John Nick · Sep 5, 2023

inruin said:
And dont forget their answer is to remove GST off fruit and vege, and increase fuel tax by more than that. Seriously cant understand apparent 'undecided' voters quibbling over whether Nationals policy is completely accounted for. I would suggest no parties policies are completely accounted for and that Nationals policy will deliver more for the people than a net worse off Labour policy.

Also, Labour have managed to find $4billion in savings (which isnt that difficult and should be a lot more considering the spendathon going on) So, the reality is that their spending has been way more than fanciful for a long time now - and not targeted or delivering any results. No accountability.

So you are agreeing that both major parties policies are flawed or fanciful or something similar.
It's just that National aren't as full of shit as Labour.
Really appreciate your feedback but my vote is still up for grabs

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miket12 · Sep 5, 2023

John Nick said:
So you are agreeing that both major parties policies are flawed or fanciful or something similar.
It's just that National aren't as full of shit as Labour.
Really appreciate your feedback but my vote is still up for grabs

Here’s where I am….
Labour has not done enough to keep my vote.
National have not done enough to earn my vote.
I can’t see any of the other parties worth voting for.
At this stage, I probably won’t vote for any of them unless a party does something huge between now and the election.

John Nick · Sep 5, 2023

miket12 said:
Here’s where I am….
Labour has not done enough to keep my vote.
National have not done enough to earn my vote.
I can’t see any of the other parties worth voting for.
At this stage, I probably won’t vote for any of them unless a party does something huge between now and the election.

You have summed up my thoughts exactly.
Still 40 days to go and lots more to come.

Woofa · Sep 5, 2023

defensivebomb said:
I'll assume I am one of those "right wingers". Though I wouldn't describe myself as such

I haven't kicked back on National's tax policy mainly because for me, elections are about both policy and credibility

I've put a line through Labour and Grant and long time ago. Their policies are ho-hum but they clearly have 6 years of all spend and no results. I would have loved to travel on a tram to the airport earlier this year, or use the Skypath, or for NZ to have better mental health, or cure child poverty, or 100,000 more houses, etc. Lovely ideas. But zero delivery. In fact, they will be leaving NZ a worse place than when they came to power. There is no better demonstration of that than the mandate they earned in 2020, and the neverending pit of covid money they've spent, have both resulted in worse outcomes across the board.

National's policies are OK. Nothing incredible but plenty of things that are in the right direction. There are some things that are obvious winners and others that are a bit of a stretch, which I understand is what you are referring to. I am willing to overlook those as on balance, they are correct that the country is on the wrong track and that we need to pull back on the spending, and make it more targeted, and have measurable outcomes. This is far preferable for me than the status quo, or for the loony policies of the Greens. TPM don't get my vote as I am not māori and don't like different rights for different races.

A good example of credibility and intent was last week's announcement of taxation on overseas gambling websites. Will it be $179m, as announced, or a lesser amount? Nobody really knows for sure. What I do know is that it isn't being taxed now, and National is looking around for easy loopholes to close. Kieran McAnulty's response - "I don't think it will be that high and we are already looking doing some stuff around that". I've got an idea for McAnulty - instead of keeping the seat warm and reassuring stuff's happening, how about he actually does it

Well said. I've visibly noticed the country go downhill hugely in the last 2 labour terms that its shocked and angered me, this is not the great country I once knew. If it wasn't for kids in schooling here we would leave for Brisbane. After just spending the long weekend there (Dolphins game and coincidently stayed at the hotel with the Team) I noticed 95% of people are genuinely happy, retail staff, hotel workers, cleaners - EVERYONE.. the balance is right, cost of living under control. Services great and the CBD full of people is not "dodgey" like it is here.

The worst of it (in NZ) is the racial division (what a load of BS - if your think its for the māori benefit you are misinformed or conned as usual) and now 'no one was forced to take Jab' just WOW. Everything under Labour is worse apart from maybe benefits (but if you add in cost of living increases you can add that in also). Again like most - not saying National is the greatest but lets face it, we have 2 choices here, Labour/ TPM/ Greens or National/ ACT.. so in that case National/ ACT 1000% cheers.

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Woofa · Sep 5, 2023

Noitall said:
She was woeful, basing her projections on trust me. On the two political shows I watched, I thought Hipkins certainly was stronger, especially on newshub nation. Seems across everything and can provide an answer. I think the debates are going to show luxon up for his lack of political background.

So Hipkins is 'slick Rick' with all the answers but does F&*k all, sorry but Im not looking for the best and slickest talker anymore. Clearly it doesn't amount to anything. Look at the powder nose we had before.

Inruin · Sep 5, 2023

miket12 said:
Here’s where I am….
Labour has not done enough to keep my vote.
National have not done enough to earn my vote.
I can’t see any of the other parties worth voting for.
At this stage, I probably won’t vote for any of them unless a party does something huge between now and the election.

I kinda get your point but also don't get it at the same time. And its not a dig, you are entitled to do with your vote as you wish, including not using it.

I will be voting National, not a surprise, and they would have to be absolutely terrible in their term for me to look at other parties next election - but I will judge them on their results. The bit I don't get is that Labour is exactly there now. So, in my mind, people either don't accept that we are in the shit, think Labour is actually doing an ok job, just will never vote for a right wing party or simply don't like the personalities of the opposition. Or maybe even a combination of some of those. For me, if you realise that what is currently there is terrible then not voting is actually a vote in itself to not change it. And that's completely fine, its your choice. You have clearly decided though that the current set up isn't delivering, which it isn't and on so many issues. I cant recall the country being in such a poor state, and across seemingly every area, than this.

So, I'll take being less shit than the current shit anyday. It's an improvement and a step in the right direction IMO. The reality is that we are in for a few years of struggle before any policy changes can take effect. If the Government doesn't change we are just delaying it further and making the situation worse.

If someone hasn't decided already, given the state we are in then I would suggest they aren't going to be swayed in the next couple of months.

Sort of feel like Nathan Brown is the incumbent and we know he is shit and not delivering but the next available option, while better, isn't likely to get us to the finals either. I'll take the next option because we cant continue to be that shit, and any improvement is better. And who knows, you might actually end up with an Andrew Webster. Let's go on Warriors

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