General Warriors SG Ball 2024

[Teets]

The Warriors scouting process leaves a lot to be desired and contributes to this too imo.

Eg The stand off for SG ball last year Piliu was not even close to one of the best halfs in NZ for his age grade. Not that he's a bad player, I like him as an outside back, just doesn't look to have a genuine halfs skill set.

Looks like they just chose as many physical specimens as they could and figured out the pozzies later. The kids who can kick and ball play but can't run over the top of people either had to go to Aussie or didn't get a look in.

And the Warriors still seem to have an aversion to scouting Maori forwards from the regions despite the amount of them that have contributed to premiership teams.
You need mobile workhorse forwards as well.

 

[mt.wellington]

Looks like they just chose as many physical specimens as they could and figured out the pozzies later. The kids who can kick and ball play but can't run over the top of people either had to go to Aussie or didn't get a look in.

That's actually something that just about every club is doing these days. As I posted about earlier you have to be 6ft minimum at 14yo to get looked at. One NZ based scout I know well is at his wits end because he is recommending highly talented kids who can play but they wont get a look in because they don't meet the physical requirements and nothing seems to sway them from that at all...

And the Warriors still seem to have an aversion to scouting Maori forwards from the regions despite the amount of them that have contributed to premiership teams.

From what I'm hearing its actually the other way around. Maori kids have an aversion to the Warriors and most of it seems to be based off the opinion of family. Let's be honest. If your offered a contract at the Warriors or the Broncos, Titans, Roosters or Storm you are probably going to Australia. Even the Titans have the Keebra carrot to dangle in front of parents.

When the Roosters recruited RTS they moved his whole family over, gave Johnny a scholarship and contract and got both parents well paid jobs. Look at Tanner Stower-Smith. He only signed with us cause he got stuck here during COVID when he was signed for the Bulldogs and meant to be playing for their SG Ball team.

The two best junior forward prospects IMO from last season who are both Maori are Charleston Te Rore and Torino Jackson and both signed to the Roosters and Titans respectively despite being heavily enticed by the Warriors. Some of the Warriors Harold Matthews players with all due respect are players who have been cut from other clubs like the Roosters.

I get it. The club doesn't have the best record with developing juniors and until we see some genuine success, establish a better junior system in NZ and more competitive school system we will always play second fiddle to most Aussie clubs...

 

[mt.wellington]

Have to say I liked the look of Tallen Egan at 5/8 over Jesse Soric. From what I have seen of Jesse he doesn't have quite the same game management that Egan played with on Sunday. Nice to see big bro Wayde there supporting him as well. Early days yet but I liked Tallens game on Sunday...

 

[sup42]

Theres a reason why the best Kiwi players are those that were developed in Australia. Their league system is like our rugby system. Better managed, infrastructure, systems, coaching, support, pathways, competition etc... While 7 year olds are learning to wrap tackle over here, Aussie kids are learning block plays. Only the insanely talented make it to the top side Warriors but they are always caught out by poor fundamentals and continued poor coaching. Cleary was good at addressing it and so was Anderson. Heres hoping Webby can do it too...

Too right. Aussie League at school boys level adopted a pro mindset before Union did here.
The commonwealth bank cup comp (schools tournament) was broadcast on telly in the eighties and had a good following. That was before reserve grade on telly became a big thing.

Playing league for your school got you free winfield cup pass to any game at any ground for the entire regular season.
I used mine to watch Mark Graham and Olsen and Clayton friend get smashed playing for the useless bears.

It is kind of reassuring to see how unprepared our SG boys are eh, because it is the cold hard truth of the local game finally laid bare and why the Warriors really need to keep this going long term, perhaps even one day the club will be powerful enough to train some local coaches of the kids grades for the bigger picture (I know that one is not the Warriors Purview but it really is in their best interest to use their resources to improve coaching in New Zealand even though they cannot keep them all....I get that...but the ones they want will be much better for having come through a semi pro culture at junior club level here).

Lastly I hope the critics of the Warriors open their eyes and look at SG ball and start to understand why professionally minded and trained NZ rugby league signings from grass roots (the bulk of our team over the years) have legitimate reasons for not being as good as the rest of the NRL.
Does my head in, people expecting us to turn into the Storm overnight using our NSW cup promising players.

 

[Teets]

That's actually something that just about every club is doing these days. As I posted about earlier you have to be 6ft minimum at 14yo to get looked at. One NZ based scout I know well is at his wits end because he is recommending highly talented kids who can play but they wont get a look in because they don't meet the physical requirements and nothing seems to sway them from that at all...

The Warriors of all clubs should know that size at age grade level is a poor indicator of performance at senior level. Especially for spine pozzies.

Guys like Papz, Thurston, Slater, Benji all woud've been tiny as 14, 15, 16 year olds.

With our big boys in the jrs you'd love to see some smaller skill based guys playing off thè back of them.

Most of these jr teams across all clubs are only going to produce 1-2 NRL players anyway so you can afford to risk a few spots on "undersized" kids.

 

[mt.wellington]

The Warriors of all clubs should know that size at age grade level is a poor indicator of performance at senior level. Especially for spine pozzies.

Guys like Papz, Thurston, Slater, Benji all woud've been tiny as 14, 15, 16 year olds.

With our big boys in the jrs you'd love to see some smaller skill based guys playing off thè back of them.

Most of these jr teams across all clubs are only going to produce 1-2 NRL players anyway so you can afford to risk a few spots on "undersized" kids.

I don't make the rules. This is just what I have been told by various scouts. As I mentioned one scout was beside himself because he would recommend a player with great potential but the kid who is 14yo and 6ft 1in who is average at best will get the nod. Their thinking is that they can train them to be the player they want but they cant make them grow. The only ones that get a pass are exceptional halfbacks but even then they are going to get passed over for the good halfbacks that's 6ft. Doesn't matter how good you are. If you cant break a line or get injured too frequently because of your size you wont be worth the longterm investment...

 

[Zaggo]

mt.wellington do you have any insights into why we struggle to produce hookers of even average quality in this country?

Warriors best hookers have all been Aussies, barring maybe Issac, and even across the comp there's bugger all Kiwi hooking talent beyond Cheese and JMK.

Is it that kids just don't want to learn, the coaching, the pathways? It seems to be the one position we as a nation really battle with.

 

[sup42]

mt.wellington do you have any insights into why we struggle to produce hookers of even average quality in this country?

Warriors best hookers have all been Aussies, barring maybe Issac, and even across the comp there's bugger all Kiwi hooking talent beyond Cheese and JMK.

Is it that kids just don't want to learn, the coaching, the pathways? It seems to be the one position we as a nation really battle with.

Mt Wellington played club footy for one of the big clubs so I am sure he will have thoughts on this too.
The problem is the size and state of the club scene in the sport here in New Zealand.

People fail to understand it is a tiny sport, I see that the playing numbers of males in the Auckland region alone is shrinking as well.

If only thirteen schools offer rugby league as a sport in your main city then you can see the problem. That is thirteen school boy hookers on offer that hopefully played at hooker week in week out - a specialist position (during those all important formative years) who are getting anything close to a proper education and exposure in a position like hooker.

Due to the same issue being a major problem for finding halves, you will find that coaches and selectors will prefer to use their best passes of the ball for their halves, and therefore some who may have been natural hookers will end up there as 'failed' halves experiments or as a utility after thought.

So given that your chance of finding a great NZ hooker prospect in the kids is a moonshot, it has been done, but rarely.

If Cameron Smith was born in New Zealand, he would never had become as good as he was, and he would have played stand off or half back......if he ended up a New Zealand hooker it would be thanks to someone else being available in rep grades coming through that could play halves as well as Smith kicked and passed a ball.

 

[watcher]

Mt Wellington played club footy for one of the big clubs so I am sure he will have thoughts on this too.
The problem is the size and state of the club scene in the sport here in New Zealand.

People fail to understand it is a tiny sport, I see that the playing numbers of males in the Auckland region alone is shrinking as well.

If only thirteen schools offer rugby league as a sport in your main city then you can see the problem. That is thirteen school boy hookers on offer that hopefully played at hooker week in week out - a specialist position (during those all important formative years) who are getting anything close to a proper education and exposure in a position like hooker.

Due to the same issue being a major problem for finding halves, you will find that coaches and selectors will prefer to use their best passes of the ball for their halves, and therefore some who may have been natural hookers will end up there as 'failed' halves experiments or as a utility after thought.

So given that your chance of finding a great NZ hooker prospect in the kids is a moonshot, it has been done, but rarely.

If Cameron Smith was born in New Zealand, he would never had become as good as he was, and he would have played stand off or half back......if he ended up a New Zealand hooker it would be thanks to someone else being available in rep grades coming through that could play halves as well as Smith kicked and passed a ball.

Both Cameron Smith and Billy Slater were told in Queensland they were too small to play NRL. Slater rode track work as a Jockey i read somewhere. They should be put aside for size alone. How many pea heart big players do you see. I wouldn't have wanted to tell Tommy Raudonikus or Gsry Freeman they were too small.

 

[Christchurch_Warrior]

Strange decision to pick just on size. Image rugby league without Allan Langer or Geoff Toovey ever playing. There would have to be an investigation.

 

[BabylonPink]

We have Taine in the squad. Not a big fellah.

 

[Teets]

mt.wellington do you have any insights into why we struggle to produce hookers of even average quality in this country?

Warriors best hookers have all been Aussies, barring maybe Issac, and even across the comp there's bugger all Kiwi hooking talent beyond Cheese and JMK.

Is it that kids just don't want to learn, the coaching, the pathways? It seems to be the one position we as a nation really battle with.

If we crunch down on Mt Wellingtons numbers it makes sense.

We've only got 30k registered players here. 15% of what Aussie has.

50% of them are māori who's whānau think they're better off with Aussie clubs at the elite level limiting the pool to mostly polynesian kids in Auckland.

Then apparently you've got to be 6 ft at 14 to even get a look in, which is fuck all kids and it's not even conducive for good future hookers if you're already that big at that age.

None of last years Origin hookers Hunt, Grant, Cook, Robson, Koroisau are even 6ft as adults let alone when they were 14, making it even more incredibly stupid that NRL recruits seemingly have a arbirtrary 6ft cut off.

 

[Viking]

If we crunch down on Mt Wellingtons numbers it makes sense.

We've only got 30k registered players here. 15% of what Aussie has.

50% of them are māori who's whānau think they're better off with Aussie clubs at the elite level limiting the pool to mostly polynesian kids in Auckland.

Then apparently you've got to be 6 ft at 14 to even get a look in, which is fuck all kids and it's not even conducive for good future hookers if you're already that big at that age.

None of last years Origin hookers Hunt, Grant, Cook, Robson, Koroisau are even 6ft as adults let alone when they were 14, making it even more incredibly stupid that NRL recruits seemingly have a arbirtrary 6ft cut off.

There's a bit of generalisation on the big player thing i reckon, part of it is because a good percentage of kids that stay in league are taller and more athletic by nature so there's the perception that it's all the NRL clubs are looking for. When other clubs come over here, they are looking for bigger players though because they already have all the speedsters and playmakers in their own backyards. Some clubs also have a mandate to look at their local players first before they poach NZ talent so if they are here, it's because there isn't enough size in their catchment. I never see Penrith scouts here for that reason. The Warriors Dev and Matts squad have plenty of kids under 6ft, even in the forwards.

 

[BabylonPink]

Now forgive my ignorance but the guy on the right I'd the hooked for the Harold matt's right?
He doesn't look that tall or imposing.

Joint captains for Harold Matthews team

One New Zealand Warriors’ Harold Matthews Cup (under-17) side will have co-captains this year.

www.warriors.kiwi

 

[Viking]

Now forgive my ignorance but the guy on the right I'd the hooked for the Harold matt's right?
He doesn't look that tall or imposing.

Joint captains for Harold Matthews team

One New Zealand Warriors’ Harold Matthews Cup (under-17) side will have co-captains this year.

www.warriors.kiwi

It's about balance for both junior teams really. The speed of the game is slowly changing the body types even in the juniors. I've said on these threads before that there will teenagers that are currently halfway through DEV contracts but no longer have body types suitable for the speed of the game. The one thing I see in teenage league in Auckland that's holding back progress is unlimited subs. Unfortunately the ARL don't have resources to monitor subs so they don't require it.

 

[Viking]

The current Ball squad is probably a symptom of the rep selections of the past and there still are holes to fill. An example of that are the Aussie halves playing in the Matts, Ball, Flegg and even Cup teams. It'll take years to build depth in those positions.

 

[BangBro's (still banging)]

The current Ball squad is probably a symptom of the rep selections of the past and there still are holes to fill. An example of that are the Aussie halves playing in the Matts, Ball, Flegg and even Cup teams. It'll take years to build depth in those positions.

And it's somthing the club needs to invest time into and make it a priority, to build a spine that could play all through the grades together should be a focus. It does feel like they are plugging holes still, but like you say, it's going to take years.

 

[Viking]

And it's somthing the club needs to invest time into and make it a priority, to build a spine that could play all through the grades together should be a focus. It does feel like they are plugging holes still, but like you say, it's going to take years.

Thankfully the kids are out there and there are the mentors in the club to bring them through. For example. there's a boy in the Matts squad now who has the biggest kick the Warriors have ever seen for someone that age I heard, including SJ and Stacey. He got injured but is eligible again next year.

I'm optimistic, I can see them making the Matts finals, maybe not Ball though just because they've got a tougher draw. If we can get it right with Matts and are really competitive in the older grades as they progress, well I've just described the recipe for success that Penrith have turned into a dynasty.

 

[watcher]

We must remember this is ground zero for these teams. Mistakes in selection and coaching will happen. The requirements on players to achieve standards will get through.

One thing zi would like to see are training and nutrition advice. It is an in needed expense with food for families though.

 

[mt.wellington]

mt.wellington do you have any insights into why we struggle to produce hookers of even average quality in this country?

Warriors best hookers have all been Aussies, barring maybe Issac, and even across the comp there's bugger all Kiwi hooking talent beyond Cheese and JMK.

Is it that kids just don't want to learn, the coaching, the pathways? It seems to be the one position we as a nation really battle with.

I have no idea TBH. We havent had a decent NZ developed hooker in the modern game ever. To put that in perspective, currently you are probably looking at Siliva Havili as the only credible example and he had to leave our club to get really going. Before him we are talking about Erin Clark, Pita Godinet, Nathaniel Roache and Tevita Leo-Latu. If you were desperate you could add Elijah Taylor and Ben Henry. Australia on the other hand seem to have an embarrassment of riches.

The position is so specialized. In rugby terms you are looking for a cross between a half back and flanker. Not an easy task and looking at the Kiwis teams its very fortunate we have managed to have one decent hooker going for most of our games. We can be thankful that Isaac Luke and Brandon Smith have been available most of the time. We only need to look back at the Kiwis using Nathan Fein to see we haven't always produced hookers of the calibre needed to play at the very top level. Even makeshift hookers like Thomas Leuluai have had to be used in the past for far too long.

Looking at our current development players I only see hookers of the old mould. Pass from dummy and tackle your guts out.

It's probably a multitude of factors but it's definitely a problem and one that's been going around for a while now...