Okay, let's introduce a capital gains tax.
Let's wipe out poverty.
Let's have a distributive and fair society.
etc etc.
And what do you mean by entitlement?
Politics π³οΈ NZ Politics
- Thread starter wizard of Tauranga
- Start date
Let's wipe out poverty.
Let's have a distributive and fair society.
etc etc.
And what do you mean by entitlement?
NZWarriors.com
Seriously, who says they are? Who have you spoken to?
You're just parroting ACT lines ffs.
Why redefining the Treaty principles would undermine real political equality in NZ
The ACT Party claims revisiting the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi is about political equality. But removing a MΔori cultural dimension to New Zealandβs democracy would have an opposite effect.
theconversation.com
NZWarriors.com
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,784
I posted from your article about neoliberalism that to complain about it, you need to come up with a comprehensive alternative economic model.
Trying to distribute success around wonβt work, you need a system where if anyone tries they can get ahead. Thatβs fundamentally where the changes need to be.
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,785
You post that mΔori arenβt afraid of being equal and then post an article about why they donβt want to be equal
Do mΔori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a mΔori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.
You canβt be seperate but with the same outcomes. A lot of their argument is confused because it canβt happen.
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Inruin
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I'm interested to understand how a separate mΔori parliament as suggested by TPM would work and what that leads to. Separate laws? Separate funding and by who? Separate outcomes? Seems far more divisive than what has been suggested currently? Any outcry over that?You post that mΔori arenβt afraid of being equal and then post an article about why they donβt want to be equal
Do mΔori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a mΔori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.
You canβt be seperate but with the same outcomes. A lot of their argument is confused because it canβt happen.
NZWarriors.com
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,787
Iβve posed the question many times on here about how they want NZ to be in 50 years and never get an answer.
Would the pro mΔori on here be happy if they had 2 great grandchildren. One was predominantly mΔori and got better access to education, healthcare, etc. The other no longer identified as mΔori and got nothing. I would be horrified if my mokopuna were divided and profiled based on culture.
Shouldnβt the way forward be that every one is treated the same with the same opportunity for great outcomes and success?
Whatβs the racial outcomes in 50 years everyone wants?
Who said they are?
I donβt see that as the argument
All MΔori are saying is we were given rights in 1840 and we expect those rights to be upheld
How is that different to you demand any rights you enjoy through signing any contract
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,789
The issue is around what are the rights?
The attempt is to clarify them but mΔori donβt want to engageβ¦
Everyone wants mΔori to succeed, thrive, get grievances addressed, etc. But what does co-governance and partnership look like?
Does anyone think renaming all govt departments in only Te Reo is a partnership? Where is that highlighted in the treaty?
NZWarriors.com
When have mΔori ever had the same outcomes as everyone else? And do you really see this resulting in that?
Exactly.
mrblonde
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Outcomes?!You post that mΔori arenβt afraid of being equal and then post an article about why they donβt want to be equal
Do mΔori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a mΔori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.
You canβt be seperate but with the same outcomes. A lot of their argument is confused because it canβt happen.
I always thought the central argument about equality was inputs ie chances in life.
But don't mind me, I'm actually in favour of a capital gains tax, banning real estate agents making money via commission and selling property by auction all with the aim of lowering the frankly demented house prices you see today. I also think The Living Wage is meaningless jumbo (what's Living? How much should you get to help you be a Netizen (or whatever it's called) since no-one can apparantly live without some form of social media these days), the Minimum Wage I'm in favour of, but boy has that gone up a lot over the last few years - as does everyone's wages to maintain the different tiers, incidentally!) so I'm a crazy leftie. I think.
As usual with these arguments, we all get rarked up by those with the loudest voices, not those who's voices make the most sense.
NZWarriors.com
Juno
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The Rights are written in the Treaty, no more, no less.
This attempt is a thinly disuised attempt to change those rights with a political process that bypasses a Parliament Act.
mΔori have been engaging with this for decades and decades and the Waitangi Tribunal was set up in 1975 by an Act of Parliament to be a permanent commission of inquiry that makes recommendations on claims brought by mΔori relating to Crown Actions that breach the promises made in the Treaty. The recommendations aren't binding on parties (including the Crown) but in some instances legal processes can be applied to make a recommendation legally binding.
The Tribunal is presided over by up to 20 members appointed by the Governor General ( about half of which are mΔori, and half Pakeha) by which claims can be investigated, reach resolution of Treaty claims, and reconciliation of outstanding issues between mΔori and the Crown.
No, not everyone wants mΔori to succeed. Stop tossing out the party lines and get real.
Co-governance and partnership is to have a seat at tables that have a direct impact on mΔori wellbeing, namely, health, social, cultural and economic tables, particularly in traditional tribal areas. It is not to take over. What about co-anything or partnership don't you understand?
When was any govt dept in te reo only? Never.
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,794
That doesnβt answer the question.
- Males have a different life expectancy to woman.
- Poor people have a different life outcome to rich.
- Old people are richer than young.
- Warriors supporters never get to experience sustained success.
Life isnβt equal.
Why should mΔori who have no disability require special support? Are they incapable? Do you condemn them to second class citizens by saying they canβt achieve without help? Why can poor immigrants come to NZ with nothing and in a generation be successful?
If mΔori are given different expectations the outcomes will be different. Eg If you donβt promote academic βwesternβ schooling then mΔori will never be successful engineers, scientists, doctors, etc in great numbers. Itβs going to be interesting evaluating the Kohonga Reo generation as from what I know, they will have a lot lower outcome by western standards but maybe thatβs what mΔori want?
But you canβt then say we need redistribution and assistance for that Kohonga Reo generation and itβs unfair because mΔori donβt get equal Western outcomes if your chosen a non Western path.
Can you demand cultural priority but also demand western outcomes?
much more eloquently put than I could muster. Thanks.
NZWarriors.com
Mr Drag
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They have a pretend mΔori King!
Not my King! If Pakeha all left for OZ, The Tribal wars would start back up, I will be importing more recruits from the Islands to take Rodney!
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,797
Waka Kotahi
Have a good read of the part you quoted.
NZWarriors.com
Juno
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Waka Kotahi NZ Transport last time I looked
wizard of Tauranga
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- Thread starter
- #5,800
Why would mΔori get a 50% say in water rights (3 waters) plus a 17% democratic say in the other 50%?
Why is water, which falls from the sky, more important to mΔori than everyone else, requiring a greater than straight democratic say?
