Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[wizard of Tauranga]

This is the party of hobson's pledge.

It’s a democracy with 3 parties democratically elected, keeping each other in check and a referendum required to push through the main change. Clear, transparent and democracy!

Maybe if Labour weren’t so underhand with He Puapua we wouldn’t be where we are now. They couldn’t even define co-governance.

Why are Maori afraid of everyone being equal?

 

[MaybeTop8]

That want everyone to be equal
- I can’t understand why this is controversial except through an entitlement basis

Okay, let's introduce a capital gains tax.

Let's wipe out poverty.

Let's have a distributive and fair society.

etc etc.

And what do you mean by entitlement?

 

[MaybeTop8]

It’s a democracy with 3 parties keeping each other in check and a referendum required to push through the main change. Democracy!

Why are Maori afraid of everyone being equal?

Seriously, who says they are? Who have you spoken to?

You're just parroting ACT lines ffs.

 

[MaybeTop8]

It’s a democracy with 3 parties democratically elected, keeping each other in check and a referendum required to push through the main change. Clear, transparent and democracy!

Maybe if Labour weren’t so underhand with He Puapua we wouldn’t be where we are now. They couldn’t even define co-governance.

Why are Maori afraid of everyone being equal?

Why redefining the Treaty principles would undermine real political equality in NZ

The ACT Party claims revisiting the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi is about political equality. But removing a Māori cultural dimension to New Zealand’s democracy would have an opposite effect.

theconversation.com

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Okay, let's introduce a capital gains tax.

Let's wipe out poverty.

Let's have a distributive and fair society.

etc etc.

And what do you mean by entitlement?

I posted from your article about neoliberalism that to complain about it, you need to come up with a comprehensive alternative economic model.

Trying to distribute success around won’t work, you need a system where if anyone tries they can get ahead. That’s fundamentally where the changes need to be.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Seriously, who says they are? Who have you spoken to?

You're just parroting ACT lines ffs.

You post that Maori aren’t afraid of being equal and then post an article about why they don’t want to be equal

Do Maori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a Maori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.

You can’t be seperate but with the same outcomes. A lot of their argument is confused because it can’t happen.

 

[Inruin]

You post that Maori aren’t afraid of being equal and then post an article about why they don’t want to be equal

Do Maori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a Maori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.

You can’t be seperate but with the same outcomes. A lot of their argument is confused because it can’t happen.

I'm interested to understand how a separate Maori parliament as suggested by TPM would work and what that leads to. Separate laws? Separate funding and by who? Separate outcomes? Seems far more divisive than what has been suggested currently? Any outcry over that?

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I'm interested to understand how a separate Maori parliament as suggested by TPM would work and what that leads to. Separate laws? Separate funding and by who? Separate outcomes? Seems far more divisive than what has been suggested currently? Any outcry over that?

I’ve posed the question many times on here about how they want NZ to be in 50 years and never get an answer.

Would the pro Maori on here be happy if they had 2 great grandchildren. One was predominantly Maori and got better access to education, healthcare, etc. The other no longer identified as Maori and got nothing. I would be horrified if my mokopuna were divided and profiled based on culture.

Shouldn’t the way forward be that every one is treated the same with the same opportunity for great outcomes and success?

What’s the racial outcomes in 50 years everyone wants?

 

[Bay39er]

Why are Maori afraid of everyone being equal?

Who said they are?
I don’t see that as the argument
All Māori are saying is we were given rights in 1840 and we expect those rights to be upheld

How is that different to you demand any rights you enjoy through signing any contract

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Who said they are?
I don’t see that as the argument
All Māori are saying is we were given rights in 1840 and we expect those rights to be upheld

How is that different to you demand any rights you enjoy through signing any contract

The issue is around what are the rights?

The attempt is to clarify them but Maori don’t want to engage…

Everyone wants Maori to succeed, thrive, get grievances addressed, etc. But what does co-governance and partnership look like?

Does anyone think renaming all govt departments in only Te Reo is a partnership? Where is that highlighted in the treaty?

 

[Damo]

Do Maori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a Maori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.

When have Maori ever had the same outcomes as everyone else? And do you really see this resulting in that?

 

[MaybeTop8]

When have Maori ever had the same outcomes as everyone else? And do you really see this resulting in that?

Exactly.

 

[mrblonde]

You post that Maori aren’t afraid of being equal and then post an article about why they don’t want to be equal

Do Maori want separation and different outcomes or to be kiwis with a Maori culture with the same outcomes as everyone else.

You can’t be seperate but with the same outcomes. A lot of their argument is confused because it can’t happen.

Outcomes?!

I always thought the central argument about equality was inputs ie chances in life.

But don't mind me, I'm actually in favour of a capital gains tax, banning real estate agents making money via commission and selling property by auction all with the aim of lowering the frankly demented house prices you see today. I also think The Living Wage is meaningless jumbo (what's Living? How much should you get to help you be a Netizen (or whatever it's called) since no-one can apparantly live without some form of social media these days), the Minimum Wage I'm in favour of, but boy has that gone up a lot over the last few years - as does everyone's wages to maintain the different tiers, incidentally!) so I'm a crazy leftie. I think.

As usual with these arguments, we all get rarked up by those with the loudest voices, not those who's voices make the most sense.

 

[Juno]

The issue is around what are the rights?
The attempt is to clarify them but Maori don’t want to engage…
The Waitangi Tribunal was formed by an Act of Parliament in 1975

Everyone wants Maori to succeed, thrive, get grievances addressed, etc. But what does co-governance and partnership look like?

Does anyone think renaming all govt departments in only Te Reo is a partnership? Where is that highlighted in the treaty?

The issue is around what are the rights?

The attempt is to clarify them but Maori don’t want to engage…

Everyone wants Maori to succeed, thrive, get grievances addressed, etc. But what does co-governance and partnership look like?

Does anyone think renaming all govt departments in only Te Reo is a partnership? Where is that highlighted in the treaty?

The Rights are written in the Treaty, no more, no less.

This attempt is a thinly disuised attempt to change those rights with a political process that bypasses a Parliament Act.

Maori have been engaging with this for decades and decades and the Waitangi Tribunal was set up in 1975 by an Act of Parliament to be a permanent commission of inquiry that makes recommendations on claims brought by Maori relating to Crown Actions that breach the promises made in the Treaty. The recommendations aren't binding on parties (including the Crown) but in some instances legal processes can be applied to make a recommendation legally binding.

The Tribunal is presided over by up to 20 members appointed by the Governor General ( about half of which are Maori, and half Pakeha) by which claims can be investigated, reach resolution of Treaty claims, and reconciliation of outstanding issues between Maori and the Crown.

No, not everyone wants maori to succeed. Stop tossing out the party lines and get real.
Co-governance and partnership is to have a seat at tables that have a direct impact on Maori wellbeing, namely, health, social, cultural and economic tables, particularly in traditional tribal areas. It is not to take over. What about co-anything or partnership don't you understand?

When was any govt dept in te reo only? Never.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

When have Maori ever had the same outcomes as everyone else?

That doesn’t answer the question.

- Males have a different life expectancy to woman.
- Poor people have a different life outcome to rich.
- Old people are richer than young.
- Warriors supporters never get to experience sustained success.

Life isn’t equal.

Why should Maori who have no disability require special support? Are they incapable? Do you condemn them to second class citizens by saying they can’t achieve without help? Why can poor immigrants come to NZ with nothing and in a generation be successful?

And do you really see this resulting in that?

If Maori are given different expectations the outcomes will be different. Eg If you don’t promote academic ‘western’ schooling then Maori will never be successful engineers, scientists, doctors, etc in great numbers. It’s going to be interesting evaluating the Kohonga Reo generation as from what I know, they will have a lot lower outcome by western standards but maybe that’s what Maori want?

But you can’t then say we need redistribution and assistance for that Kohonga Reo generation and it’s unfair because Maori don’t get equal Western outcomes if your chosen a non Western path.

Can you demand cultural priority but also demand western outcomes?

 

[MaybeTop8]

The Rights are written in the Treaty, no more, no less.

This attempt is a thinly disuised attempt to change those rights with a political process that bypasses a Parliament Act.

Maori have been engaging with this for decades and decades and the Waitangi Tribunal was set up in 1975 by an Act of Parliament to be a permanent commission of inquiry that makes recommendations on claims brought by Maori relating to Crown Actions that breach the promises made in the Treaty. The recommendations aren't binding on parties (including the Crown) but in some instances legal processes can be applied to make a recommendation legally binding.

The Tribunal is presided over by up to 20 members appointed by the Governor General ( about half of which are Maori, and half Pakeha) by which claims can be investigated, reach resolution of Treaty claims, and reconciliation of outstanding issues between Maori and the Crown.

No, not everyone wants maori to succeed. Stop tossing out the party lines and get real.
Co-governance and partnership is to have a seat at tables that have a direct impact on Maori wellbeing, namely, health, social, cultural and economic tables, particularly in traditional tribal areas. It is not to take over. What about co-anything or partnership don't you understand?

When was any govt dept in te reo only? Never.

much more eloquently put than I could muster. Thanks.

 

[Mr Drag]

It’s a democracy with 3 parties democratically elected, keeping each other in check and a referendum required to push through the main change. Clear, transparent and democracy!

Maybe if Labour weren’t so underhand with He Puapua we wouldn’t be where we are now. They couldn’t even define co-governance.

Why are Maori afraid of everyone being equal?

They have a pretend Maori King! Not my King! If Pakeha all left for OZ, The Tribal wars would start back up, I will be importing more recruits from the Islands to take Rodney!

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

When was any govt dept in te reo only? Never.

Waka Kotahi

 

[MaybeTop8]

Waka Kotahi

Have a good read of the part you quoted.

 

[Juno]

Waka Kotahi

Waka Kotahi NZ Transport last time I looked