Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Mr. Brownstone]

yes exactly - the shortage is a complex issue, in part because of deliberate policy and decades of underinvestment in training and upskilling people from the internal population and reliance on immigration to fill the gaps, with all the ramifications of infrastructure, corruption, societal gaps, health etc that also aren't being addressed. And that also drives wages down, resulting in the skilled younger workforce here going overseas where they can etc

Chicken & egg though isn’t it. Societal gaps, lack of education means a lack of skilled labour and a reliance on immigrant workers, all contributes to poor productivity. Hard to take any talk from government around improving productivity seriously until there’s a circuit breaker for our lowest demographics.

 

[John Nick]

Went and had a couple of handles in the weekend and found their answer to problem gambling. No air conditioning. Was a couple of die hards but was the emptiest I’ve ever seen it. TAB was done away with about 6 months at the particular pub I drink at.

Yes mate In a lot of venues they are removing the auto vending machines

Don't understand the logic but they say they are too expensive to upkeep
Clubs and pubs are having to pay and train staff and that is expensive also.
Tab have tough on these outlets in the past.
To explain for example the TAB on Melbourne Cup day insist ALL staff behind the tab machines are wearing tab Melbourne Cup specific tee shirts.
However they sell them to the venues for the one day only.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Chicken & egg though isn’t it. Societal gaps, lack of education means a lack of skilled labour and a reliance on immigrant workers, all contributes to poor productivity. Hard to take any talk from government around improving productivity seriously until there’s a circuit breaker for our lowest demographics.

Skill shortages aren't down to the lowest demographics, whatever that means.

We're talking decades of untrammelled immigration, deliberate underinvestment and axing of development programmes etc - it's extremely complex. No doubt there's generational unemployment, which is completely different and also very complex and requires different thinking.

To argue otherwise is simply ignoring facts, and generally the domain of the lazy right.

Here's an idea for improving productivity (also, what does that mean as well, really?). Four day weeks, getting paid for 5 and on the basis of being allowed that time honouring an 8 hour productive day whereever you work, for fair and equitable recompense.

 

[BabylonPink]

Skill shortages aren't down to the lowest demographics, whatever that means.

We're talking decades of untrammelled immigration, deliberate underinvestment and axing of development programmes etc - it's extremely complex. No doubt there's generational unemployment, which is completely different and also very complex and requires different thinking.

To argue otherwise is simply ignoring facts, and generally the domain of the lazy right.

Here's an idea for improving productivity (also, what does that mean as well, really?). Four day weeks, getting paid for 5 and on the basis of being allowed that time honouring an 8 hour productive day whereever you work, for fair and equitable recompense.

I think they're trialling it in Aus.
At least I heard about it in a paper....

 

[John Nick]

I think they're trialling it in Aus.
At least I heard about it in a paper....

They have talking papers in Aus. now??
Wow.
Just taking the piss.

 

[miket12]

They have talking papers in Aus. now??
Wow.
Just taking the piss.

And you call me a wannabe comedian

 

[John Nick]

And you call me a wannabe comedian

There was a little fairy and her name was Nuff.
Fairy nuff.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Skill shortages aren't down to the lowest demographics, whatever that means.

We're talking decades of untrammelled immigration, deliberate underinvestment and axing of development programmes etc - it's extremely complex. No doubt there's generational unemployment, which is completely different and also very complex and requires different thinking.

To argue otherwise is simply ignoring facts, and generally the domain of the lazy right.

Here's an idea for improving productivity (also, what does that mean as well, really?). Four day weeks, getting paid for 5 and on the basis of being allowed that time honouring an 8 hour productive day whereever you work, for fair and equitable recompense.

So what do you think the outcome of moving to 4 day weeks with employers paying for 5 days will be? It can’t be just take take take. Companies need to earn an acceptable return on the risk & capital investment required to operate.

Skilled shortages are down to a lack of education, and that lack of education is most evident in our lowest socio-economic regions.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

So what do you think the outcome of moving to 4 day weeks with employers paying for 5 days will be? It can’t be just take take take. Companies need to earn an acceptable return on the risk & capital investment required to operate.

Skilled shortages are down to a lack of education, and that lack of education is most evident in our lowest socio-economic regions.

The companies that have have 4 day weeks and paid for 5 will be lawyers, accountants, tech companies, bank employees, council/ govt workers, etc with a huge markup on labour and no real productivity in their work.

Try it with a sole charge retail worker or builders or digger drivers and it’s just laughable how much less will be done and the impact on customers.

Real competitive workers that are highly productive with a low markup on wages. If an employer can pay for 5 days and only have 4 then that business is making currently making excessive profits on their employee labour and I will take my business elsewhere.

 

[Noitall]

Skilled shortages are down to a lack of education, and that lack of education is most evident in our lowest socio-economic regions.

If lowest socioeconomic regions are the smaller ones, many of them died in the 80’s when the freezing works etc for which many of them was their main employer were shut down without any replacement. Going to be interested to see how the sleepyhead factory in Ohiniwai goes who are building a village around the factory for employees to live. Synlait milk factory did something similar and seemed to work well, although I understand there are real concerns for the future of synlait? Around the skilled shortages, sometimes an industry needs to do something to make itself more appealing when facing diversity. There are industries such as the fruit picking industry for instance which has for some time now faced challenges around interest from the likes of Kiwis in employment largely because of the living quarters which has only in recent times started to be addressed in some places.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

The companies that have have 4 day weeks and paid for 5 will be lawyers, accountants, tech companies, bank employees, council/ govt workers, etc with a huge markup on labour and no real productivity in their work.

Try it with a sole charge retail worker or builders or digger drivers and it’s just laughable how much less will be done and the impact on customers.

Real competitive workers that are highly productive with a low markup on wages. If an employer can pay for 5 days and only have 4 then that business is making currently making excessive profits on their employee labour and I will take my business elsewhere.

If you don’t incentivise to take risk then you end up losing your top talent. Some don’t seem to grasp that concept, or perhaps they think that would be a good thing. Who knows.

 

[MaybeTop8]

So what do you think the outcome of moving to 4 day weeks with employers paying for 5 days will be? It can’t be just take take take. Companies need to earn an acceptable return on the risk & capital investment required to operate.

Skilled shortages are down to a lack of education, and that lack of education is most evident in our lowest socio-economic regions.

It's a far more complex problem in my opinion though with all due respect. And sadly there's not the will to explore the depth of these issues. None of us have all the facts here.

For example, the shortage of doctors, mental health specialists etc isn't due to lack of education in low socio economic regions, although that might be a factor (a small one I suspect).

The commonality in skill shortages, unemployment, infrastructure deficits etc is politics - political will and bias, and a system of capitalism we've had entrenched in our society for 45 years now called neoliberalism. Yep I had to get it in.

 

[MaybeTop8]

The companies that have have 4 day weeks and paid for 5 will be lawyers, accountants, tech companies, bank employees, council/ govt workers, etc with a huge markup on labour and no real productivity in their work.

Try it with a sole charge retail worker or builders or digger drivers and it’s just laughable how much less will be done and the impact on customers.

Real competitive workers that are highly productive with a low markup on wages. If an employer can pay for 5 days and only have 4 then that business is making currently making excessive profits on their employee labour and I will take my business elsewhere.

That's a strange reason to take your business elsewhere wiz? Almost sounds like jealousy!

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

That's a strange reason to take your business elsewhere wiz? Almost sounds like jealousy!

The markets not working if those companies have such excessive profits.

You act voters may love it when companies have basically a monopoly and don’t have to be competitive. Competition should ensure a low profit margin!

Us greenies hate capitalist companies that wrought us consumers. All we want is everyone working a 40 hour week and paid fairly for a 40 hour week.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

It's a far more complex problem in my opinion though with all due respect. And sadly there's not the will to explore the depth of these issues. None of us have all the facts here.

For example, the shortage of doctors, mental health specialists etc isn't due to lack of education in low socio economic regions, although that might be a factor (a small one I suspect).

The commonality in skill shortages, unemployment, infrastructure deficits etc is politics - political will and bias, and a system of capitalism we've had entrenched in our society for 45 years now called neoliberalism. Yep I had to get it in.

Btw I’m laughing at your last 2 sentences.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

That's a strange reason to take your business elsewhere wiz? Almost sounds like jealousy!

To give some dues I think eventually we will have some sort of universal benefit with everyone working less.

But it will be done through govt/ tax and not by individual employers.

It’s awhile away in the future though and a topic for another day.

 

[MaybeTop8]

The markets not working if those companies have such excessive profits.

You act voters may love it when companies have basically a monopoly and don’t have to be competitive. Competition should ensure a low profit margin!

Us greenies hate capitalist companies that wrought us consumers. All we want is everyone working a 40 hour week and paid fairly for a 40 hour week.

32 hour week and paid fairly

 

[Juno]

The markets not working if those companies have such excessive profits.

You act voters may love it when companies have basically a monopoly and don’t have to be competitive. Competition should ensure a low profit margin!

Us greenies hate capitalist companies that wrought us consumers. All we want is everyone working a 40 hour week and paid fairly for a 40 hour week.

I think you miss a point and another really good point.
The first one is you don't pay a person for a day they don't work, you pay them to get their 5 days of work through increased productivity over 4 days. Why would they step up and do that? Because they get a three-day weekend with family or to do other things without a drop in income.
The second one is, if you're smart, you'll have a second employee working 4 days (their days could overlap within a normal working week) under the same arrangement and productivity kpi's, and effectively you get an 8-day week from 2 people, higher production from happier staff and you potentially save 3 days pay because you didn't have to employ a 3rd person. As the number of staff goes up depending on the industry, productivity continues and staff numbers deliver.
Won't work with all industries perhaps but would with most.

 

[MaybeTop8]

I think you miss a point and another really good point.
The first one is you don't pay a person for a day they don't work, you pay them to get their 5 days of work through increased productivity over 4 days. Why would they step up and do that? Because they get a three-day weekend with family or to do other things.
The second one is, if you're smart, you'll have a second employee working 4 days (their days could overlap within a normal working week) under the same arrangement and productivity kpi's and effectively you get an 8-day week, higher production from happier staff and you potentially save 3 days pay because you didn't have to employ a 3rd person. As the number of staff goes up depending on the industry, productivity continues and staff numbers deliver.
Won't work with all industries perhaps but would with most.

Thanks Juno, far more articulate than me!

 

[MaybeTop8]

Btw I’m laughing at your last 2 sentences.

I was going to leave this, but genuinely interested - what's funny there?