I thought reality was subjective, except for the generally agreed reality that always changes with new data.
Politics š³ļø NZ Politics
- Thread starter wizard of Tauranga
- Start date
NZWarriors.com
Where's @Beastmode You got us banned from the Naughty Chair thread again, dipstick.
He's obsessed with lesbians.
He's obsessed with lesbians.
Serves you right ...
NZWarriors.com
Fair point
Further on housing affordability... I'm surprised at this graph. While there was a spike around COVID, we're continuously fed the line that National are all for increasing economy growth though immigration and the increasing house prices, but, when you like at this graph, it seems housing becomes more unaffordable when there's a Labour government. Remember that we're continuously fed the line that stopping deducting interest was going to bring down the housing affordability, but it actually had the opposite effect. And, once landlords were allowed to claim interest, housing has become more affordable.
The chart is from a large Herald article behind their paywall.... if anyone's really interested, I'll post the whole article.
www.nzherald.co.nz
The chart is from a large Herald article behind their paywall.... if anyone's really interested, I'll post the whole article.
How much do you need to comfortably buy a Kiwi house?
Find out where to buy the least and most affordable NZ properties.
- Thread starter
- #19,286
This after the gender wage gap decreased to the lowest point ever from 8.2% to 5.2%.Further on housing affordability... I'm surprised at this graph. While there was a spike around COVID, we're continuously fed the line that National are all for increasing economy growth though immigration and the increasing house prices, but, when you like at this graph, it seems housing becomes more unaffordable when there's a Labour government. Remember that we're continuously fed the line that stopping deducting interest was going to bring down the housing affordability, but it actually had the opposite effect. And, once landlords were allowed to claim interest, housing has become more affordable.
View attachment 14284
The chart is from a large Herald article behind their paywall.... if anyone's really interested, I'll post the whole article.
How much do you need to comfortably buy a Kiwi house?
Find out where to buy the least and most affordable NZ properties.
This is good government, fixing the underlying issues rather than bandaids.
Well done coalition. Doing more for Labour target voters than the left does!
NZWarriors.com
The average man on the street does not vote for Neoliberalism & probably couldn't even define the word.
So saying "if you donāt like neoliberalism, you actually donāt like the average man on the street, in todayās society" is ridiculous.
People who don't like a political theory that will eventually exhaust's the earths resources, ruin the environment and drive social inequality are against the common man. lol.
You're not seeing signed of end game capitalism? Should society be taking steps to avoid that happening?
The average swing voter votes on personalty or as you mentioned incremental policy.
You talk about "easy out's" but blissfully ignoring that political structures can be manipulated for financial gain is really naive.
Huh? All political theories will exhaust the earths resources (if you believe that resources are destroyed rather than recycled) they just differ in the distribution of profits. How does socialism preserve resources when its just about who owns the methods of production?
The only real exception is if you believe in Malthusianism, in which case there's no helping you.
Errā¦ think you have misunderstood my point. What Iām saying is that neoliberalism is the term that collectively labels a range of policies that are voted in by the average man on the street. Itās an outcome, rather than a specific single choice. If you arenāt a fan of the outcome, then what that means is you arenāt a fan of the society that votes for them, your fellow man. See the point below re: boogeymen
Look at tragedy of the commons. It exists. Societies do not necessarily do things that are best for them. I think it is somewhat futile (or in your own words "naive") to try to convince people to behave otherwise. How does one go about doing that? What are the realistic chances of success?
More likely we'll end up voting for some policies that incrementally adjust capitalism. But this will be society-led, rather than government-led. The only way to "end" one thing abruptly and start another is to do it with a shuddering event, like an overthrow of a government or royal family or a war
Pol Pot had a go at ending capitalism. Another guy in Europe didn't like capitalism either, and took it out on another group of people. Lots of films about that period history
I think capitalism will just slowly morph into something that will have another label. Incremental change rather than radical change
But as my point above, this will be aggregation of all of the average men on the street who do it
I donāt believe in an evil boogeyman pulling the strings from a tower looking down. Too convenient to try to find a single enemy as the root cause. Itās in our nature to try to find one. I believe that policies resonate people given human nature and environmental factors. And at the moment, these are policies that are labelled neoliberalism as they fit the general definition. I never said that people don't manipulate political structures for financial gain. I just don't believe any one particular group pulls all the strings and implements an economic theory. The voters demand the policy and the parties create policy to gain votes and implement it
Is neoliberalism perfect? Of course not. Is it the best thing for us right now? I canāt think of any other good example of another system that could realistically be implemented in NZ that would have fewer issues. If anyone has some good examples of alternatives that are working well elsewhere and would work here, please provide them. Not trying to stir things up - I am genuiunely interested in seeing what alternative is currently working better elsewhere and, taking into account the diversity of voters, could work in NZ
NZWarriors.com
Huh? Lenin? It cant be Marx, he just spent his time begging for money and refusing to shower
What are some examples of the NZ electorate demanding neoliberal type policy & getting that enacted after an election?
Isn't it much more likely we've had neolib policy happen at the behest of the donor system.
I can't think of specific examples off the top of my head, but farmers typically want to open up foreign markets for our products and farmer-friendly (emissions-wise) policies, so typically vote National. In fact, any time that the electorate votes in National is a reflection of their policies resonating with the NZ electorate. Those policies are typically neoliberal in theme
yep I agree this has happened. Tobacco etc
NZWarriors.com
Sorry d bomb, wrong on many counts here with all due respect. "Neoliberalism is simply what society, as an average whole, wants right now" - Nope. It's an imposed hard right ideology with roots going back 100 years, and a massive resurgence in the late 60s, all of the 70s, 80s and 90s, and is now the Establishment of western monetary policy. Except that the misery it causes sees incumbent governments thrown out usually, replaced by something similar, who get thrown out and the original mob come in to repeat the dose only this time even stronger.
"Thinking there is some malevolent hand pulling the strings is just an easy out" - this seems more like your own viewpoint. Neoliberalism is real, the dominance is driven as a tool by groups such as Atlas, Heritage, Mont Pelerin society, Project 2025, and in New Zealand, Act, The fucking taxpayers bullshit union, and most of National, the NZ Business Initiative etc for different local aims but ultimately to break down democracy, remove barriers to mass profit and effectively end any kind of equality or push for diversity around the world. The actual aims spoken behind closed doors I'm sure are much worse.
Highly ideological, utterly destructive. ACT are pushing these very things. Deregulation, privatisation, destruction of our environment, paid for by their donors, utterly corrupt. Wreaking havoc on the average New Zealander.
There may not be one cohesive conspiracy here, but it's all there, all out in the open, from Friedman, Hayek, Thatcher, Reagan, Prebble, Douglas to Key, Luxon, Seymour, Bolsonaro, Trump, the idiots in the last British government, the idiots in the last Aussie government, the Reserve Bank, probably the majority of senior economic civil servants around the world in Western societies.
Even worse now are the billionaires that aren't even pretending. They seriously want to turn the earth into a fiefdom again.
It's been embedded for the last 50 years in New Zealand.
" If you donāt like neoliberalism, you actually donāt like the average man on the street, in todayās society. " Rubbish, sorry, that's your take mate.
It's laughable that I see attempts at false equivalence - "But what about the left???" "OOOHHH those nasty marxists!!!" "But the left do it too!!!"
Pike River should never have happened, all due to "red tape" bullshit that pushed for deregulation and cost these men, and many others over the years, their lives.
Now this hard right government is going down exactly the same path, all in the name of profits for their masters and an ideological neoliberal approach (hattip defensive bomb)
www.rnz.co.nz
link here: "
View: https://bsky.app/profile/brucebuckman.bsky.social/post/3lxfuha5sdk25"
Now this hard right government is going down exactly the same path, all in the name of profits for their masters and an ideological neoliberal approach (hattip defensive bomb)
Workplace safety reforms risk another Pike River, officials warned
Documents reveal critical flaws in proposed safety reforms, with officials warning the changes could create legal loopholes and risk another tragedy.
www.rnz.co.nz
link here: "
View: https://bsky.app/profile/brucebuckman.bsky.social/post/3lxfuha5sdk25"
- Thread starter
- #19,295
All stirring stuff but itās sort of irrelevant if you canāt show another system with examples how itās worked around the world.
In fact, I believe competition is the key to an economy. It ensures sharp pricing, drives innovation and productivity. Itās driven all the advances in medicine, technology, products, etc that has delivered the massive gains in standard of living and quality of life over the last 100 years.
I think itās those gains that have ensured our current economic models have been voted for and push out alternatives.
Question (and you need to answer for once!) What is the alternative system and more importantly, how will it drive competition, innovation, productivity and improvement?
NZWarriors.com
"Question (and you need to answer for once!) What is the alternative system and more importantly, how will it drive competition, innovation, productivity and improvement?" And I have answered more than once. Alternative to neoliberalism? Bog standard capitalism will do nicely thanks, even better if it's the keynesian variety. I haven't read Doughnut economics but I'm pretty sure that and many, many other books will have some great ideas too. See that's the thing, there's a misunderstanding and in some cases a wilful misinterpretation of what neoliberalism is in these pages, and by proxy, what I am for or against. I'm not against capitalism. I'm against the rapacious greed and destruction of democracy all around us while you lot shout "COMMIE!!! RED!!!! MARXIST!!! WHY SHOULD I <fill in selfish rant>!!!!! WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME!!!!!" that we are witnessing right now. That includes, especially fascism, authoritarianism and dictatorships.
"All stirring stuff but itās sort of irrelevant if you canāt show another system with examples how itās worked around the world." Are you serious? FFS Wiz, it's in NZ, Australia, The UK, USA, Argentina, Brazil, it's wreaked havoc in many South American countries, many African countries, it's in Hungary......it's embedded in the right and far right all around the world!!! FOR THE LAST 70 YEARS.
Once and for all - NEOLIBERALISM IS NOT CAPITALISM. It is a subset, and a particularly nasty, destructive one that serves to make the rich richer, and the rest of us fucked in as short a time as possible.
Here's more corruption - reducing regulatory burden. Fucking bullshit. Alcohol does the most harm in this country, more than anything else. And I was a drinker for 35 years, I know.
www.rnz.co.nz
Alcohol laws to be loosened, government announces
The changes come after a leaked Cabinet paper revealed plans to make business easier for the alcohol industry.
www.rnz.co.nz
- Thread starter
- #19,298
āAt its core, neoliberliasm emphasizes free markets, limited government intervention, and individual responsibility as the best way to organize society.ā
Those are the attributes that have driven the competition that we have all benefitted from. Capitalism is stunted without it!
As I said, examples of other countries where different systems have worked
NZWarriors.com
- Thread starter
- #19,299
Do you believe responsible drinkers should be penalised for the few idiots?Here's more corruption - reducing regulatory burden. Fucking bullshit. Alcohol does the most harm in this country, more than anything else. And I was a drinker for 35 years, I know.
Alcohol laws to be loosened, government announces
The changes come after a leaked Cabinet paper revealed plans to make business easier for the alcohol industry.
Should all laws be set for the lowest common denominator?
- Thread starter
- #19,300
We (National and Labour) use Keynesian economics, all countries do, even the ones you complain about like the US:
From chat GPT:
Keynesian economics is a school of thought developed by British economist John Maynard Keynes, mainly from his 1936 book The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money.
At its core, Keynesian economics argues that:
- Free markets donāt always self-correct quickly, especially during recessions.
- Government intervention (through fiscal policy like spending and taxation, and sometimes monetary policy) is needed to stabilize the economy.
- In downturns, governments should spend more (even run deficits) to boost demand, while in booms they should save more or raise taxes to prevent overheating.
Key Features of Keynesian Economics
- Emphasis on aggregate demand as the driver of economic output and employment.
- Support for countercyclical policies (government action opposite to the business cycle).
- Tolerance for government borrowing in recessions.
- Belief that unemployment can persist without government action.
Countries that Use Keynesian Economics
Almost all modern economies use some form of Keynesian policies, especially in recessions, though rarely in a "pure" form (most combine with free-market/neoliberal approaches). Examples:- United States:
- The New Deal (1930s, Roosevelt) was heavily Keynesian.
- Post-WWII economic management relied on Keynesian principles.
- In 2008ā09 (Global Financial Crisis) and 2020 (COVID-19), the U.S. used Keynesian stimulusāmassive government spending and relief packages.
- United Kingdom:
- Directly influenced by Keynes himself.
- After WWII, Britain adopted Keynesian demand management policies until the 1970s.
- Recent years (COVID-19 furlough scheme, stimulus spending) show Keynesian influence again.
- European Union:
- Many EU states (Germany, France, Italy, Spain) used large fiscal stimulus in 2008 and 2020.
- The European Central Bank combines this with monetary policy.
- Japan:
- Has run repeated fiscal stimulus programs since the 1990s to fight stagnation (āAbenomicsā included Keynesian-style government spending).
- Australia & New Zealand:
- Used stimulus packages during the 2008 crisis and COVID-19.
- Generally follow mixed economies with Keynesian interventions when needed.
- Developing economies (e.g., India, Brazil, South Africa):
- Often use Keynesian tools (infrastructure spending, subsidies, public works) to boost employment and growth.
In short: Most modern economies are āneo-Keynesianā in practice, combining market mechanisms with government intervention when markets fail.
