Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[Mr. Brownstone]

yeah fair point marv. Stepping back

Join the Fantasy or, if you want to get really serious, SuperCoach comps to take your mind off things. Lots of fun.

 

[Juno]

i deplore antivaxxers and the whole angry uneducated toothless type, but i went through those protests here in wellington a handful of times. the people there were an overwhelmingly majority green maori and labour voters.

also take a breath bro. just relax. the end of the world through neoliberalism can wait, not long till kick off.

What a misleading statement.
The antivax crowd down there were conspiracy theorist nutters predominantly far-right, if anything. Yes, even the many Maori that participated.
Very few Labour or Green party amongst them if you take another look - maybe once upon a time .
And the people who rarked them up to go there? Take another look at their leanings, politically.
Blanket statements are the scourge of good discussion and politics. A product of social media too - not worth responding to most times - sometimes really hard to ignore but so insiduously wrong you have to.

 

[Worried2Death]

And the people who rarked them up to go there?

This is where the far right element is lurking in the shadows, not necessarily their gullible rubes at the protest.

 

[Worried2Death]

I’m just asking questions and encouraging people to think. I’m an optimistic nihilist, so I don’t care what people do. But at least be honest so people can make an honest decision.

Politicians would have you believe it’s more humane to perpetuate generations of child abuse than to just shoot a few rapists. That Pike River dude should have copped one too.

Optimistic nihilist... is that like an independant communist?

 

[Rick O’Shay]

What a misleading statement.
The antivax crowd down there were conspiracy theorist nutters predominantly far-right, if anything. Yes, even the many Maori that participated.
Very few Labour or Green party amongst them if you take another look - maybe once upon a time .
And the people who rarked them up to go there? Take another look at their leanings, politically.
Blanket statements are the scourge of good discussion and politics. A product of social media too - not worth responding to most times - sometimes really hard to ignore but so insiduously wrong you have to.

I went there to support a couple of friends who were anti vax. Not that I was as I had the regulation needles but I supported their right to not want to put anything into their bodies that they didn't or weren't entirely comfortable with. Nothing to do with rabbit holes or world wide conspiracy. I'm picking you weren't there?

I met a number of people to the left of centre, plus I would say the people were from all walks of life and across the board politically. The last day was feral but there were by that stage a number of subvervise elements and we shot the gap before the fires started

Sure, there were a number of lead heads there but there were also a large number of good people who were protesting at what they believed was an infringement of their basic human rights. And especially when the PM at the time had said that it didn't matter if you didn't get the jab, there would be no collateral damage and it was ok. Nek minute.

Further to that, I went to Albert Park with the same people (and my wife ) when Ms Posy Parker was due to speak. My wife being a woman's rights activist for many years wanted to express her experiences.
What happened there was deplorable and to this day we sweep that sort of action under the rug, getting who the victims are, and the perps the wrong way round. Not only that but our media and some politicians glorified the violence.

Long way to go in this country before we can have any meaningful dialogue with people who don't share the same views or ideology. You are quite right that blanket statements and generalisms are the scourge of good discussion but I do find it pays to have some experience if you want to comment.

#Everyoneisdifferent

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

What a misleading statement.
The antivax crowd down there were conspiracy theorist nutters predominantly far-right, if anything. Yes, even the many Maori that participated.
Very few Labour or Green party amongst them if you take another look - maybe once upon a time .
And the people who rarked them up to go there? Take another look at their leanings, politically.
Blanket statements are the scourge of good discussion and politics. A product of social media too - not worth responding to most times - sometimes really hard to ignore but so insiduously wrong you have to.

Curia Market Research surveying 312 protesters at the Wellington Protests. as far as I know this is the only official record:

In terms of ethnicity, 64.4% percent of protesters identified as Europeans; 27.2% as Māori; 4.2% as Asians, and 2.6% as Pacifica.

In terms of voting patterns 29.8% of the protesters voted for Labour, 15.9% for the Greens 15.9% for National, 11.9% for ACT and 3.6% for the Maori Party.

I believe the impact was non political and covered the entire political spectrum but Left voters more likely to protest against social injustice in greater numbers.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Funny thing about the whole vax thing.

I thought on the balance of probabilities it was worth getting the jab. On the same balance, I don’t believe it still is. But I think the entire exercise was worth it for what we learned.

 

[marv.]

What a misleading statement.
The antivax crowd down there were conspiracy theorist nutters predominantly far-right, if anything. Yes, even the many Maori that participated.
Very few Labour or Green party amongst them if you take another look - maybe once upon a time .
And the people who rarked them up to go there? Take another look at their leanings, politically.
Blanket statements are the scourge of good discussion and politics. A product of social media too - not worth responding to most times - sometimes really hard to ignore but so insiduously wrong you have to.

sorry dude, not what i saw, not who i spoke to at all. not even close.
hate to argue because i really appreciate you and your views generally. but i spent a good few hours there on a good few occasions.
took a grip of photos too.

 

[Rick O’Shay]

sorry dude, not what i saw, not who i spoke to at all. not even close.
hate to argue because i really appreciate you and your views generally. but i spent a good few hours there on a good few occasions.
took a grip of photos too.

Please destroy any photos of me. Need to keep my Linked in profile clean

 

[marv.]

Please destroy any photos of me. Need to keep my Linked in profile clean

in all honesty some of the photos i’m pretty stoked on! having a degree in the arts, i particularly love composition and use of light vs subject so i’ve kept them. they were from the first couple of nights when there was a raw and palpable excitement. (before people were shitting outside their own tents, and walking through it/ using their children as shields, before that fat dickhead put the sprinklers on, before half the losers there solely to cause trouble set a fucking children’s playground on fire and started throwing pavers at people) there was a genuine sense that this was NZ speaking.



wrong.
it was a bunch of good intentioned people, thirty something stolen cars from fucking rotorua and northland of all places blocking the street and an absolute ton of inconvenienced non contributors out to hurt people.

all they did was make it impossible for the people with a real cause.

 

[Inruin]

Auckland mayor Wayne Brown on why public sector contracts go over budget and over time
By Auckland mayor Wayne Brown
19 Feb, 2024 05:00 AM

OPINION

Inevitably all construction projects in the public sector take longer to finish and cost way more than expected and always way more than private sector to do these things.

Since I became Auckland mayor, council has had to deal with a billion-dollar blow out on the already late and expensive City Rail Link and there is a current debate over ludicrously expensive pedestrian crossings. On top of that the recently opened “gold-plated” Holiday Highway from Puhoi to Warkworth, while much appreciated, could and should have been done way quicker and at least $400m cheaper which would have meant that it got way further north past Wellsford.

There are two main reasons for this: Wrong people and wrong procurement processes.

Decision-making on these projects usually sits with boards that reflect NZ’s obsessive focus on governance and diversity rather than a range of skills directly useful for the sector involved. Our boards are full of people who in my opinion have managed to get onto more boards than sensible and in most cases without any experience of the industry for which they are responsible. The boards of Waka Kotahi, ( NZTA) and Auckland Transport have almost nobody who has built a road or even driven a truck but instead I believe they reflect diversity of race and gender without experience of spending their own money building the things they control and the public want.

I build and own roads and commercial buildings and have heavy traffic licenses and my projects just don’t have the cost and time blowouts that plague the public sector and which add to our rates and taxes, so I feel better qualified to offer my opinion than even the overpaid consultants that the public sector love to support.

Process drives behaviour and current processes are driving the bad results we get.

What is missing is that right from the start there is no focus on value for money. In the private sector the very first question is what is the value to be extracted from this projected capital spend. It might be the maximum rent, the value of savings in travel time, the value even of whatever public benefits may accrue but there needs to be a financial measure for the project before any money is committed.

Once this value is known than that will determine what the maximum sensible capital spend should be. If the expected cost exceeds this figure then either the project is shelved or reduced.

Once the maximum sum to be spent is determined it is locked in and a plan of the main features to be delivered is agreed. No detailed design or drawings are needed at this stage, just enough information to explain what is wanted and the maximum sum to be spent.

Then the project goes to the market to see what contractors will supply for that amount of money and the best value offer is chosen.

In my view, what happens under public works programs is detailed design work is commissioned and there is always scope creep as people who aren’t actually paying for it want more than originally needed. Then it goes to tender and the price comes back way over the budget.

To make matters worse, current tender rules require the council or government department to publish their expected cost which is usually way in excess of the sum derived from the value for money approach. This signals to the tenderers that they have plenty of room for profits provided they come in under the published figure, resulting in everyone patting themselves on the back, the contractor for a big profit and the council for apparently saving money when in fact they have squandered public funds that never should have been spent.

Wait till you see the elaborate City Rail Link stations. They are more like cathedrals than places when all you want to do is catch a train!

Have a look at the Holiday Highway to Warkworth. If you compare what we got with the section of the same motorway between Albany and Silverdale which carries way more traffic you will note that the Holiday Highway is much wider than the Albany section, it has much wider central strip and shoulders which instead of cheap grass have hot mix seal on bits that nobody drives on, it has guard rails everywhere, and even the bridges are much wider than the bit you actually drive on, meaning very expensive elevated bridge works that will never be used. There are huge cuts through hills that had no reason to be so wide and the extra unneeded cuts cost hundreds of millions that could have been better spent elsewhere.

As a result of this waste of money, there are now huge budgetary pressures on roading so just watch out for cuts to road maintenance budgets which have a much better impact on safety than the millions squandered on this project alone.

I believe we need a complete change to the decision-makers and the way they make their decisions or these flash bits of road will just be stranded things to show your grandchildren what we could have had everywhere if we had treated public money like our own.

Wayne Brown is Auckland’s mayor. He co-founded engineering consultancy Brown and Thomson in 1976, has held leadership positions at organisations including TVNZ, Māori TV, Transpower, Vector Ltd, and was chair of the Land Transport Safety Authority. He chaired the Northland District Health Board and Tairāwhiti District Health Board, the Auckland District Health Board and was previously a mayor of the Far North District.

Wayne Brown: Why do public sector contracts go over budget and over time?

Opinion: "Since I became mayor, council has had to deal with a billion-dollar blow out".

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[Juno]

Auckland mayor Wayne Brown on why public sector contracts go over budget and over time
By Auckland mayor Wayne Brown
19 Feb, 2024 05:00 AM

OPINION

Inevitably all construction projects in the public sector take longer to finish and cost way more than expected and always way more than private sector to do these things.

Since I became Auckland mayor, council has had to deal with a billion-dollar blow out on the already late and expensive City Rail Link and there is a current debate over ludicrously expensive pedestrian crossings. On top of that the recently opened “gold-plated” Holiday Highway from Puhoi to Warkworth, while much appreciated, could and should have been done way quicker and at least $400m cheaper which would have meant that it got way further north past Wellsford.

There are two main reasons for this: Wrong people and wrong procurement processes.

Decision-making on these projects usually sits with boards that reflect NZ’s obsessive focus on governance and diversity rather than a range of skills directly useful for the sector involved. Our boards are full of people who in my opinion have managed to get onto more boards than sensible and in most cases without any experience of the industry for which they are responsible. The boards of Waka Kotahi, ( NZTA) and Auckland Transport have almost nobody who has built a road or even driven a truck but instead I believe they reflect diversity of race and gender without experience of spending their own money building the things they control and the public want.

I build and own roads and commercial buildings and have heavy traffic licenses and my projects just don’t have the cost and time blowouts that plague the public sector and which add to our rates and taxes, so I feel better qualified to offer my opinion than even the overpaid consultants that the public sector love to support.

Process drives behaviour and current processes are driving the bad results we get.

What is missing is that right from the start there is no focus on value for money. In the private sector the very first question is what is the value to be extracted from this projected capital spend. It might be the maximum rent, the value of savings in travel time, the value even of whatever public benefits may accrue but there needs to be a financial measure for the project before any money is committed.

Once this value is known than that will determine what the maximum sensible capital spend should be. If the expected cost exceeds this figure then either the project is shelved or reduced.

Once the maximum sum to be spent is determined it is locked in and a plan of the main features to be delivered is agreed. No detailed design or drawings are needed at this stage, just enough information to explain what is wanted and the maximum sum to be spent.

Then the project goes to the market to see what contractors will supply for that amount of money and the best value offer is chosen.

In my view, what happens under public works programs is detailed design work is commissioned and there is always scope creep as people who aren’t actually paying for it want more than originally needed. Then it goes to tender and the price comes back way over the budget.

To make matters worse, current tender rules require the council or government department to publish their expected cost which is usually way in excess of the sum derived from the value for money approach. This signals to the tenderers that they have plenty of room for profits provided they come in under the published figure, resulting in everyone patting themselves on the back, the contractor for a big profit and the council for apparently saving money when in fact they have squandered public funds that never should have been spent.

Wait till you see the elaborate City Rail Link stations. They are more like cathedrals than places when all you want to do is catch a train!

Have a look at the Holiday Highway to Warkworth. If you compare what we got with the section of the same motorway between Albany and Silverdale which carries way more traffic you will note that the Holiday Highway is much wider than the Albany section, it has much wider central strip and shoulders which instead of cheap grass have hot mix seal on bits that nobody drives on, it has guard rails everywhere, and even the bridges are much wider than the bit you actually drive on, meaning very expensive elevated bridge works that will never be used. There are huge cuts through hills that had no reason to be so wide and the extra unneeded cuts cost hundreds of millions that could have been better spent elsewhere.

As a result of this waste of money, there are now huge budgetary pressures on roading so just watch out for cuts to road maintenance budgets which have a much better impact on safety than the millions squandered on this project alone.

I believe we need a complete change to the decision-makers and the way they make their decisions or these flash bits of road will just be stranded things to show your grandchildren what we could have had everywhere if we had treated public money like our own.

Wayne Brown is Auckland’s mayor. He co-founded engineering consultancy Brown and Thomson in 1976, has held leadership positions at organisations including TVNZ, Māori TV, Transpower, Vector Ltd, and was chair of the Land Transport Safety Authority. He chaired the Northland District Health Board and Tairāwhiti District Health Board, the Auckland District Health Board and was previously a mayor of the Far North District.

Wayne Brown: Why do public sector contracts go over budget and over time?

Opinion: "Since I became mayor, council has had to deal with a billion-dollar blow out".

www.nzherald.co.nz

Project Management 101.
Now we're talking my field. A project team though is different to a Board per se - all things can't be run under a project management system so his comment re diversity on boards isn't relevant. However a good board should employ a reputable project manager for projects, from scope to completion & handover.
Projects have a start, middle & end, different to BAU which boards also oversee. He conflates the two with his remarks.
Interesting that he's is/ was one of those 'consultants' he also remarks on & sat on a diverse (as in fields) boards - hopefully for project management reasons only because his opinion on board diversity is off the mark if a board is to cover all aspects of governing a wide range of services and populations. You learn a lot but project management is the practical, finite, part of works to be done outside of BAU.
Good points re this country (some areas more than others) re 'thinking big' and beyond the brief culture.
Of course though there is a lot of outside issues that can affect the brief that you have no control over, that affects design, money, and time creep.
A good project management team should meet regularly and drive that point home to the top echelon, not the board.

 

[dean]

Project Management 101.
Now we're talking my field. A project team though is different to a Board per se - all things can't be run under a project management system so his comment re diversity on boards isn't relevant. However a good board should employ a reputable project manager for projects, from scope to completion & handover.
Projects have a start, middle & end, different to BAU which boards also oversee. He conflates the two with his remarks.
Interesting that he's is/ was one of those 'consultants' he also remarks on & sat on a diverse (as in fields) boards - hopefully for project management reasons only because his opinion on board diversity is off the mark if a board is to cover all aspects of governing a wide range of services and populations. You learn a lot but project management is the practical, finite, part of works to be done outside of BAU.
Good points re this country (some areas more than others) re 'thinking big' and beyond the brief culture.
Of course though there is a lot of outside issues that can affect the brief that you have no control over, that affects design, money, and time creep.
A good project management team should meet regularly and drive that point home to the top echelon, not the board.

Are you in the private or public sector?
In the public sector a ' project team ' would be unlikely to have the authority to buy an ice cream. Their brief would be entirely process driven and any recommendations to a Board must first comply with the ' process'. Commercial reality is further down the path.
Public sector boards in my experience are as described, diversity and political appointments.

 

[Juno]

I went there to support a couple of friends who were anti vax. Not that I was as I had the regulation needles but I supported their right to not want to put anything into their bodies that they didn't or weren't entirely comfortable with. Nothing to do with rabbit holes or world wide conspiracy. I'm picking you weren't there?

I met a number of people to the left of centre, plus I would say the people were from all walks of life and across the board politically. The last day was feral but there were by that stage a number of subvervise elements and we shot the gap before the fires started

Sure, there were a number of lead heads there but there were also a large number of good people who were protesting at what they believed was an infringement of their basic human rights. And especially when the PM at the time had said that it didn't matter if you didn't

Long way to go in this country before we can have any meaningful dialogue with people who don't share the same views or ideology. You are quite right that blanket statements and generalisms are the scourge of good discussion but I do find it pays to have some experience if you want to comment.

#Everyoneisdifferent

Only time I comment is through my own experience.
Agree everyone is different.
Each to their own.

 

[Rick O’Shay]

Only time I comment is through my own experience.
Agree everyone is different.
Each to their own.

I always read your comments with interest as they are well though out and easy to see where you are coming from.

My background is similar to yours, CM rather than PM. One thing I noticed before retirement was what Brown was talking about re creep.

It wasn't uncommon for the feed to be incomplete but Construction well under way to try and reduce the schedule. Production rules.

Only difference I guess was in my case the O&G industry could afford it.

 

[Juno]

Are you in the private or public sector?
In the public sector a ' project team ' would be unlikely to have the authority to buy an ice cream. Their brief would be entirely process driven and any recommendations to a Board must first comply with the ' process'. Commercial reality is further down the path.
Public sector boards in my experience are as described, diversity and political appointments.

Have experience in both.
If a board is involved in a project it is usually oversight only (in regards to strategic planning etc) and should be asking the right questions of the CEO, appointed by them, who should be ensuring a project is running according to all its parameters, in particular financial ones.
The working relationship for a project team (whether public or private) is senior management not the board. Thats what I meant re regular interaction with the top echelon (of management). Any overrun or blowout, or unrealistic additions etc (even from the board), the buck stops with the CEO.
Thats Business 101.
A good & competent CEO's job is to deliver realism to his Board.
If budget overrun is endemic in either, they all should be sacked.
Good project management and projects work from the brief and if changes or creep happens, they report up.

 

[dean]

Have experience in both.
If a board is involved in a project it is usually oversight only (in regards to strategic planning etc) and should be asking the right questions of the CEO, appointed by them, who should be ensuring a project is running according to all its parameters, in particular financial ones.
The working relationship for a project team (whether public or private) is senior management not the board. Thats what I meant re regular interaction with the top echelon (of management). Any overrun or blowout, or unrealistic additions etc (even from the board), the buck stops with the CEO.
Thats Business 101.
A good & competent CEO's job is to deliver realism to his Board.
If budget overrun is endemic in either, they all should be sacked.
Good project management and projects work from the brief and if changes or creep happens, they report up.

Agree with you, that is how it should work.
However, the public sector is awash with CEO's that seem to move from one entity to another regardless of performance.
Senior management is no better. I never saw one senior manager take issue with a CEO about anything.
Boards largely comprising political appointments and diversity can be easily persuaded that all is well. They simply don't have the expertise.
I think Wayne Brown is pretty much right.

 

[Juno]

Agree with you, that is how it should work.
However, the public sector is awash with CEO's that seem to move from one entity to another regardless of performance.
Senior management is no better. I never saw one senior manager take issue with a CEO about anything.
Boards largely comprising political appointments and diversity can be easily persuaded that all is well. They simply don't have the expertise.
I think Wayne Brown is pretty much right.

I hear you. And yes, agree on a lot he's saying too.
If boards stuck to what they are meant to do and CEO/ senior management were competent it would almost be a perfect business world lol.
A Board's diversity is a really good thing but crossover from a governance role to an organisational one buggers it up.
Unfortunately, a lot of Boards aren't trained in governance, they're just appointments - a lot of "professional board members" make a good penny the more they're on...great gig after retirement if you can get it...

 

[John Nick]

I hear you. And yes, agree on a lot he's saying too.
If boards stuck to what they are meant to do and CEO/ senior management were competent it would almost be a perfect business world lol.
A Board's diversity is a really good thing but crossover from a governance role to an organisational one buggers it up.
Unfortunately, a lot of Boards aren't trained in governance, they're just appointments - a lot of "professional board members" make a good penny the more they're on...great gig after retirement if you can get it...

Lot of jobs for the boys in board rooms

 

[Rizzah]