Politics 🤡 Donald Trump

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watcher said:
What evidence is there to say Russia will do that? NATO is trying yo advance towards Russia, not the other way.
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The statement we’re ready for war with Europe from Putin indicates that’s the case however you want to paint a picture of why that is
 

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Noitall said:
His best bet is to stay off boats
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Speaking of boats.....I just had an image of him on the Titanic shouting I'm the King of the World....ooh whats that big white thing floating ahead with USS Gerald R Ford stamped on the side....."
Bay39er said:
Money buys a pardon at the moment
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Like the Popes of old selling 'indulgences' to allow sinners to buy their way into heaven.

What is it with Trump and the endless Biblical references...maybe he is King Cyrus the great.....either that or he is Damien Thorn....
 
Noitall said:
The statement we’re ready for war with Europe from Putin indicates that’s the case however you want to paint a picture of why that is
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How does that prove they want to take over Europe?

When he said the greatest tragedy of the fall of the Soviet Union was the number of Russians outside Russia border was made into wanting to recreate the Soviet Union.
 

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watcher said:
How does that prove they want to take over Europe?

When he said the greatest tragedy of the fall of the Soviet Union was the number of Russians outside Russia border was made into wanting to recreate the Soviet Union.
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But isn't that just a consequence of Colonization and an excuse to preserve or expand colonial take overs?

The Russians like all Colonial powers flood other countries with their own and then have justification for why they own "Russian" Ukraine.....or Russian Lativia or whatever country that they like to point to as "mainly Russian speaking".

And lets not forget the Russians take that even further than other Colonists by kidnapping people (often Children) and indoctrinating them? There are parents of missing children in Ukraine right now. There are reports of bus loads of kids.

They will grow up not being able to speak Ukrainian and therefore have to be "Russian" to operate in the world.

The Question we should really be asking is what is the right of Ukrainians to want to define themselves?

Who has the right to make that definition?

The person affected? or the people wanting to define who they are for them.

This peace process is very much a microcosm of this principle....Russia and America defining what peace means without consultation.
 
watcher said:
How does that prove they want to take over Europe?

When he said the greatest tragedy of the fall of the Soviet Union was the number of Russians outside Russia border was made into wanting to recreate the Soviet Union.
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Gee your eyes came clear all a sudden, I remember it was a passionate subject for yourself citing provocation towards the Russians. I don’t think there’s any intention of stopping at Ukraine for Russia personally, I know you’ll disagree and it also doesn’t look to me as if there’s any intention of brokering a deal between Russia and Ukraine in any way other that Russia having complete control. I presume your remark about take over Europe is in response to me saying Europe needs to band together or Russia will march through Europe? I think they’d be naive to be thinking otherwise
 

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Noitall said:
Gee your eyes came clear all a sudden, I remember it was a passionate subject for yourself citing provocation towards the Russians. I don’t think there’s any intention of stopping at Ukraine for Russia personally, I know you’ll disagree and it also doesn’t look to me as if there’s any intention of brokering a deal between Russia and Ukraine in any way other that Russia having complete control. I presume your remark about take over Europe is in response to me saying Europe needs to band together or Russia will march through Europe? I think they’d be naive to be thinking otherwise
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I get you but a lot of the rationale is about Russia going into Europe when there is nothing to substantiate it.
 
watcher said:
I get you but a lot of the rationale is about Russia going into Europe when there is nothing to substantiate it.
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Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz www.stuff.co.nz

I think this sort of rhetoric further increases an idea that a lack of trust should be extended the way Russia is branding America as the good guys negotiating on behalf of Ukraine and demonising Europe as the barrier to a resolution. Again I think they would be extremely naive to trust Putin and Russia
 

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Noitall said:

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz www.stuff.co.nz

I think this sort of rhetoric further increases an idea that a lack of trust should be extended the way Russia is branding America as the good guys negotiating on behalf of Ukraine and demonising Europe as the barrier to a resolution. Again I think they would be extremely naive to trust Putin and Russia
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A lack of trust goes both ways. Early in the war an agreement was reached between Ukraine and Russia which would have left the conflicted areas except Crimea with Ukraine. Boris Johnson went to the tslks and got Ukraine go carry on fighting.
 
watcher said:
A lack of trust goes both ways. Early in the war an agreement was reached between Ukraine and Russia which would have left the conflicted areas except Crimea with Ukraine. Boris Johnson went to the tslks and got Ukraine go carry on fighting.
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Yeah I guess it does. I’ve made my mind up on everything I’m seeing in front of me and we’re likely never going to see it from the same viewpoint. I see the invasion as unjust right from the start and your view was that Russia was liberating them from old nazi remnants left from parts of Ukraine in world war 2? My memory could be off and I apologise if so but I back Europe completely in their concerns
 
watcher said:
Please explain how it is disinformation.
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Putin has never been the victim here. The NATO encroachment has been widely promoted, along with a number of other conspiracies to portray Russia as somehow the victim, on the side of the just etc, which is rubbish. Putin's a nationalist thug, but a very clever one who plays the long game excellently.

And he has full control over Trump.

Have a read of this: https://theconversation.com/putins-...ionalist-who-has-endorsed-donald-trump-253466

It's been a long time goal of Putin, and a shared goal with Trump to weaken Europe, and they're doing quite a good job.

Putin won't stop at Ukraine, he'll keep going. And his population are just convenient meat for the grinder.

I'm sure what passes for the other side has it's foibles too, but to believe that somehow Putin is the one hard done by here, sorry, don't even remotely buy that.

Anecdotally, the Nato/Putin conspiracy has often been touted by those who align various conspiracies, with anti covid, anti climate change, generally right and far right leaning movements, not to mention pro Trump. There's patterns, and it's pretty obvious that's not something I subscribe to.
 

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MaybeTop8 said:
Putin has never been the victim here. The NATO encroachment has been widely promoted, along with a number of other conspiracies to portray Russia as somehow the victim, on the side of the just etc, which is rubbish. Putin's a nationalist thug, but a very clever one who plays the long game excellently.

And he has full control over Trump.

Have a read of this: https://theconversation.com/putins-...ionalist-who-has-endorsed-donald-trump-253466

It's been a long time goal of Putin, and a shared goal with Trump to weaken Europe, and they're doing quite a good job.

Putin won't stop at Ukraine, he'll keep going. And his population are just convenient meat for the grinder.

I'm sure what passes for the other side has it's foibles too, but to believe that somehow Putin is the one hard done by here, sorry, don't even remotely buy that.

Anecdotally, the Nato/Putin conspiracy has often been touted by those who align various conspiracies, with anti covid, anti climate change, generally right and far right leaning movements, not to mention pro Trump. There's patterns, and it's pretty obvious that's not something I subscribe to.
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I think ukraine was put into an uncomfortable situation by its own leaders aligning more with the West. Wether that's because of foreign actors I dunno. The euromaiden stinks.
 
There are no good guys here. After the Maidan coup sponsored by the US ares like Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk opposed the new regime. Ukraine started shelling the latter 2 and thoussnds were killed. Crimea had its own Parliament and voted to secede to Russia Pitin refused until theu had a popular vote which voted to secede by 97%. As Russia had 30,000 militzry personnel in Ukraine this was easy. Worth remembering that Crimes has been Russian longer than the US has existed. Furthur complicating matters is Ukraine was not a country before the Soviets collapsed.
 
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