Politics NZ Politics

[Inruin]

I suspect that might happen when you and your sidekick stop whinging about the previous government

Are you referring to me and am I supposed to be the side kick?

If so, how degrading being relegated to Wiz's side kick.

And if it is me you are referring to, you have mistaken my comments as whinging. They are merely reminders for, I guess, your kindred spirits, in response to their whinging just how shit the last 6 years have been as they obviously either aren't aware or have forgotten.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

I suspect that might happen when you and your sidekick stop whinging about the previous government

The difference is we’re in the majority and those that have a bee in their bonnet about the new government are being shown to increasingly be an extremist minority. It’s the left whinging since the election, organising protests and complaining about policies with a mandate, voted by the majority.

The more we see protests, gun talk, negativity and hate towards the democratically elected government the more Luxon and Seymour grow. The left is giving themselves an uppercut and don’t even see it!

I was at a social event yesterday and someone was wheeling out all the lefts misguided attack lines about the government wants everyone to smoke, etc and nobody cared. It’s focusing on non events that the majority, uninterested in politics, simply don’t care about.

No… actually keep on about the govt being pro smoking and needing more bike lanes and government hating Maori… A couple more terms of Luxon and Seymour sounds good to sort out the country and make NZ great again.

Hint: left politicians need to spend a while being quiet and respectful towards the majority’s vote and wait until Labours incompetence is a distant memory. Then try to win the election with positivity, hope and how the left will make our lives better. Negativity and protest never wins!

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

The difference is we’re in the majority and those that have a bee in their bonnet about the new government are being shown to increasingly be an extremist minority. It’s the left whinging since the election, organising protests and complaining about policies with a mandate, voted by the majority.

The more we see protests, gun talk, negativity and hate towards the democratically elected government the more Luxon and Seymour grow. The left is giving themselves an uppercut and don’t even see it!

I was at a social event yesterday and someone was wheeling out all the lefts misguided attack lines about the government wants everyone to smoke, etc and nobody cared. It’s focusing on non events that the majority, uninterested in politics, simply don’t care about.

No… actually keep on about the govt being pro smoking and needing more bike lanes and government hating Maori… A couple more terms of Luxon and Seymour sounds good to sort out the country and make NZ great again.

Hint: left politicians need to spend a while being quiet and respectful towards the majority’s vote and wait until Labours incompetence is a distant memory. Then try to win the election with positivity, hope and how the left will make our lives better. Negativity and protest never wins!

As Steven Joyce put it today:

‘If you kick up a fuss about every single thing that is stopped by the new Government, you look like you are still part of the spending problem and haven’t learnt anything. Or even worse you are petulantly refusing to accept the election result. One of the reasons Labour got spanked last October was because the public thought that Government wasn’t being careful enough with their hard-earned tax dollars while they themselves were doing it tough. Wailing about every change since just underlines to voters why it was the right decision to throw them out.’

 

[MaybeTop8]

As Steven Joyce put it today:

‘If you kick up a fuss about every single thing that is stopped by the new Government, you look like you are still part of the spending problem and haven’t learnt anything. Or even worse you are petulantly refusing to accept the election result. One of the reasons Labour got spanked last October was because the public thought that Government wasn’t being careful enough with their hard-earned tax dollars while they themselves were doing it tough. Wailing about every change since just underlines to voters why it was the right decision to throw them out.’

Steven Joyce - that neutral paragon of virtue who undermines democracy every chance he gets with his consultancy creaming money off of the taxpayer on behalf of corporate interest. Wonderful.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Steven Joyce - that neutral paragon of virtue who undermines democracy every chance he gets with his consultancy creaming money off of the taxpayer on behalf of corporate interest. Wonderful.

Keep playing the person not the message

He’s obviously from the right but trying to help out those on the left… ostrich’s keep their head buried in the hole and hope it will all be better soon

 

[MaybeTop8]

The difference is we’re in the majority and those that have a bee in their bonnet about the new government are being shown to increasingly be an extremist minority. It’s the left whinging since the election, organising protests and complaining about policies with a mandate, voted by the majority.

The more we see protests, gun talk, negativity and hate towards the democratically elected government the more Luxon and Seymour grow. The left is giving themselves an uppercut and don’t even see it!

I was at a social event yesterday and someone was wheeling out all the lefts misguided attack lines about the government wants everyone to smoke, etc and nobody cared. It’s focusing on non events that the majority, uninterested in politics, simply don’t care about.

No… actually keep on about the govt being pro smoking and needing more bike lanes and government hating Maori… A couple more terms of Luxon and Seymour sounds good to sort out the country and make NZ great again.

Hint: left politicians need to spend a while being quiet and respectful towards the majority’s vote and wait until Labours incompetence is a distant memory. Then try to win the election with positivity, hope and how the left will make our lives better. Negativity and protest never wins!

You are determined to make this a left right thing. How the "other" side won so we're all whinging.

What are the left's attack lines? Who is the left? I don't see them visible at all.

Say something often enough and it becomes believable, a common tactic of the right, they are very successful at implementing that - things like "Labour wrecked the economy" - repeating that ad nauseum for two years before the election with no proof. Your comment reflects those same tactics.

The current government are doing and will do huge damage to the country via their corporate driven neoliberal agenda.

That's a fact. That's the truth Wiz.

This isn't some left/right shit, this is who they are. This is what they do. If you're okay with that, say so, don't play the victim (another common tactic on the right - say outrageous stuff then play the victim when people push back) - say so and let's move on.

I'm not clearly. I say so at every opportunity I get. If the left were doing something equally hideous I WOULD SAY SO.

It's morally wrong, threatening democracy and highly dangerous what we're seeing.

Here's some facts about this current government:
- National/Act/New Zealand First (hereafter referred to as they) are looking to privatise and have started already - charter schools first, they're also softening the ground for selling off our natural resources
- They have made huge concessions to big tobacco. This threatens our nation's health, increases profits for big tobacco and paves the way for years of deadly addiction from these corporations whose products kill. We have been set back years, and our international reputation has been severely damaged
- They are openly conducting war on climate change measures, rolling back moves that had momentum to evs, culling public transport initiatives and promoting fossil fuel exploration. Regressive, dangerous in every way. Flying in the face of science
- They can't pay for their tax cuts so they are cutting money elsewhere, like education, like health, like taking away oversight of government activities
- They've put us on a war footing
- Winston Peters has openly threatened media for doing their job - that's fascist, that's authoritarian.
- They have attacked gains for Maori and are actively rolling them back, then crying victim when they're being called out on it
- They have openly subsidised landlords and rolled back tenants rights in a way never seen before
- They have rolled back workers rights already

This isn't an argument from the left. THIS GOVERNMENT IS DOING ALL OF THIS RIGHT NOW.

This is who conservative and extreme right governments are in this neoliberal world. They sell assets. They criminalise protest. They extract wealth for the few. They privatise people's lives. They deliberately underfund and then say "look how the left has broken things down, communism doesn't work, let's sell it off".

We're seeing this play out in real time. Simeon Brown anyone? Seymour?

These policies are all part of the neolib framework set up through the many right wing thinktanks around the world, including the Atlas Network. It may not be overtly linked but it's the same policies. Go and look if you don't believe me.

We've lived through it here in the 80s and 90s and saw great damage done to New Zealand and it's infrastructure. Short term and self interest is the core of the neoliberal agenda.

And as for this: "Hint: left politicians need to spend a while being quiet and respectful towards the majority’s vote" - you mean we should shut the fuck up? Sorry mate, that's what democracy is. That's what freedom of speech actually is, not the libertarian version of free speech - "I demand the right to offend and say and do what I want but you don't", where anyone who speaks out against this rising fascism is attacked.

The right in America restrict free speech, abortion rights and burn books. They want to restrict rights for minorities and attack women's rights.

The refuge of the fascist and authoritarian is a black and white world - for us or against us. Fuck that.

We see the same inflammatory rhetoric creeping in here.

Here's the uk government's implemented policies:
A crash programme of massive cuts;
demolishing public services;
privatising public assets;
centralising political power;
sacking civil servants;
sweeping away constraints on corporations and oligarchs;
destroying regulations that protect workers, vulnerable people and the living world;
supporting landlords against tenants;
criminalising peaceful protest;
restricting the right to strike.

Sound familiar?

It's wrong. It's bad for New Zealand. It's bad for the environment. It's bad for the world. And we should all be concerned.

Just don't pretend this is some kind of left wing attack against this virtuous government. This isn't left right. It's right and wrong.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Keep playing the person not the message

He’s obviously from the right but trying to help out those on the left… ostrich’s keep their head buried in the hole and hope it will all be better soon

Okay, seeing as how I struggle with your humour - if I take you literally comments like this are not grounded in reality. Moving on.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

You are determined to make this a left right thing. How the "other" side won so we're all whinging.

What are the left's attack lines? Who is the left? I don't see them visible at all.

Say something often enough and it becomes believable, a common tactic of the right, they are very successful at implementing that - things like "Labour wrecked the economy" - repeating that ad nauseum for two years before the election with no proof. Your comment reflects those same tactics.

The current government are doing and will do huge damage to the country via their corporate driven neoliberal agenda.

That's a fact. That's the truth Wiz.

This isn't some left/right shit, this is who they are. This is what they do. If you're okay with that, say so, don't play the victim (another common tactic on the right - say outrageous stuff then play the victim when people push back) - say so and let's move on.

I'm not clearly. I say so at every opportunity I get. If the left were doing something equally hideous I WOULD SAY SO.

It's morally wrong, threatening democracy and highly dangerous what we're seeing.

Here's some facts about this current government:
- National/Act/New Zealand First (hereafter referred to as they) are looking to privatise and have started already - charter schools first, they're also softening the ground for selling off our natural resources
- They have made huge concessions to big tobacco. This threatens our nation's health, increases profits for big tobacco and paves the way for years of deadly addiction from these corporations whose products kill. We have been set back years, and our international reputation has been severely damaged
- They are openly conducting war on climate change measures, rolling back moves that had momentum to evs, culling public transport initiatives and promoting fossil fuel exploration. Regressive, dangerous in every way. Flying in the face of science
- They can't pay for their tax cuts so they are cutting money elsewhere, like education, like health, like taking away oversight of government activities
- They've put us on a war footing
- Winston Peters has openly threatened media for doing their job - that's fascist, that's authoritarian.
- They have attacked gains for Maori and are actively rolling them back, then crying victim when they're being called out on it
- They have openly subsidised landlords and rolled back tenants rights in a way never seen before
- They have rolled back workers rights already

This isn't an argument from the left. THIS GOVERNMENT IS DOING ALL OF THIS RIGHT NOW.

This is who conservative and extreme right governments are in this neoliberal world. They sell assets. They criminalise protest. They extract wealth for the few. They privatise people's lives. They deliberately underfund and then say "look how the left has broken things down, communism doesn't work, let's sell it off".

We're seeing this play out in real time. Simeon Brown anyone? Seymour?

These policies are all part of the neolib framework set up through the many right wing thinktanks around the world, including the Atlas Network. It may not be overly linked but it's the same policies. Go and look if you don't believe me.

We've lived through it here in the 80s and 90s and saw great damage done to New Zealand and it's infrastructure. Short term and self interest is the core of the neoliberal agenda.

And as for this: "Hint: left politicians need to spend a while being quiet and respectful towards the majority’s vote" - you mean we should shut the fuck up? Sorry mate, that's what democracy is. That's what freedom of speech actually is, not the libertarian version of free speech - "I demand the right to offend and say and do what I want but you don't", where anyone who speaks out against this rising fascism is attacked.

The right in America restrict free speech, abortion rights and burn books. They want to restrict rights for minorities and attack women's rights.

The refuge of the fascist and authoritarian is a black and white world - for us or against us. Fuck that.

We see the same inflammatory rhetoric creeping in here.

Here's the uk government's implemented policies:
A crash programme of massive cuts;
demolishing public services;
privatising public assets;
centralising political power;
sacking civil servants;
sweeping away constraints on corporations and oligarchs;
destroying regulations that protect workers, vulnerable people and the living world;
supporting landlords against tenants;
criminalising peaceful protest;
restricting the right to strike.

Sound familiar?

It's wrong. It's bad for New Zealand. It's bad for the environment. It's bad for the world. And we should all be concerned.

Just don't pretend this is some kind of left wing attack against this virtuous government. This isn't left right. It's right and wrong.

Love your passion mate!

But you missed the message. All your saying are valid points but tell me why the polls are moving how they are?

(And don’t use the denial arguments that the polls are wrong/ the voters didn’t know what they were voting for at the election)

 

[Rick O’Shay]

Just an observation and bearing in mind the efficacy of polling, it's looking like Luxon has backed himself into a corner with the ToW issues.

If public support continues at the same levels, it's hard to see how the Nats can ignore it, right or wrong.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Love your passion mate!

But you missed the message. All your saying are valid points but tell me why the polls are moving how they are?

(And don’t use the denial arguments that the polls are wrong/ the voters didn’t know what they were voting for at the election)

Honestly? Don't care about polls. And it's a Taxpayer's union poll.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Just an observation and bearing in mind the efficacy of polling, it's looking like Luxon has backed himself into a corner with the ToW issues.

If public support continues at the same levels, it's hard to see how the Nats can ignore it, right or wrong.

From a strategic point major changes needs to be slow and take years.

Seymour will lay the ground work, this cycle, build support and make it mainstream, taking the heat out of it.

Luxon stays central and keeps himself electable with the swing voters by not offending anyone.

Win / win.

Next election, with it all mainstream and a platform for change built they negotiate again. If there’s a groundswell Luxon jumps on board, if it stays divisive in 3 years he keeps central.

Either way behind the scenes things will be changed to make us all equal, just like Labour did the other way.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Just an observation and bearing in mind the efficacy of polling, it's looking like Luxon has backed himself into a corner with the ToW issues.

If public support continues at the same levels, it's hard to see how the Nats can ignore it, right or wrong.

And that could very well be the long game.

It suits National that the "fringe" parties take the heat on quite a bit of this, but I suspect National support this implicitly and are quite happy to see it play out this way. Might even be part of their negotiation.

DISCLAIMER FOR INRUIN AND WIZ: THIS IS MY OPINION, IT HAS NO FACTUAL BACKING - YET

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

And that could very well be the long game.

It suits National that the "fringe" parties take the heat on quite a bit of this, but I suspect National support this implicitly and are quite happy to see it play out this way. Might even be part of their negotiation.

DISCLAIMER FOR INRUIN AND WIZ: THIS IS MY OPINION, IT HAS NO FACTUAL BACKING - YET

I agree.

 

[MaybeTop8]

From a strategic point major changes needs to be slow and take years.

Seymour will lay the ground work, this cycle, build support and make it mainstream, taking the heat out of it.

Luxon stays central and keeps himself electable with the swing voters by not offending anyone.

Win / win.

Next election, with it all mainstream and a platform for change built they negotiate again. If there’s a groundswell Luxon jumps on board, if it stays divisive in 3 years he keeps central.

Either way behind the scenes things will be changed to make us all equal, just like Labour did the other way.

What wiz said up until that last sentence. Jaysis, coherent and we agree, apart from the last sentence which throws it all out the window.

 

[wizard of Tauranga]

Just an observation and bearing in mind the efficacy of polling, it's looking like Luxon has backed himself into a corner with the ToW issues.

If public support continues at the same levels, it's hard to see how the Nats can ignore it, right or wrong.

The three proposed principles: the Government is allowed to govern, we all have private property rights and we’re all equal under the law. Who doesn’t agree with that?

A Curia-Taxpayer’s Union poll in October found 60 per cent support for those principles. The support is consistent across every age group, both genders, all three major cities and supporters of all political parties. Even the Green Party.

 

[Inruin]

Say something often enough and it becomes believable, a common tactic of the right

I didn't take you as a right person.

 

[MaybeTop8]

I didn't take you as a right person.

I should qualify - something fictional. You're more than welcome to check out any links I've provided.

 

[Inruin]

I should qualify - something fictional. You're more than welcome to check out any links I've provided.

You mean all those links that are from left leaning writers? You can't have Stephen Joyce but......

You mean the ones from treasury that clearly state that the previous government were out of control with their spending and the direction to this government is to reign it in to a sustainable level? Which you then try and extrapolate out to cuts, privatisation, etc etc

I could go on.

You actually have some good points on some issues but the fact you carry on about every single thing regardless really detracts from them, particularly when the previous government has been shown to have done some similar things and nothing but silence despite claims otherwise. Much like what the opposition parties are doing now as well. The scare mongering just isn't working. You are entitled to your opinion of course, as we all are.

 

[MaybeTop8]

You mean all those links that are from left leaning writers? You can't have Stephen Joyce but......

You mean the ones from treasury that clearly state that the previous government were out of control with their spending and the direction to this government is to reign it in to a sustainable level? Which you then try and extrapolate out to cuts, privatisation, etc etc

I could go on.

You actually have some good points on some issues but the fact you carry on about every single thing regardless really detracts from them, particularly when the previous government has been shown to have done some similar things and nothing but silence despite claims otherwise. Much like what the opposition parties are doing now as well. The scare mongering just isn't working. You are entitled to your opinion of course, as we all are.

As I mentioned in the early reply to Wiz - it's not scaremongering, it's fact.

This government is doing all of this.

If you guys are happy with that, fine, say it, and that's how it is.

But the whole "left is picking on us" when the policies are right in front of all of us just don't cut it.

Most of us here I think lived through nz in the 80s and 90s. This is what they do. Thatcher, Reagan, Richardson, Prebble, Douglas, Pinochet, Sunak, Key, Bassett, Seymour, Brash, Hide, Luxon, Milei, any republican in the states, Tony Blair.

This is them. So no problem really, but it's not going away. And if you're happy with what they (National/Act/Nz First) implement great, if not then say so. I certainly will and do. It's corrupt.

I'm saying so, but I'm getting shrill again, so I'll try and be quiet today.

 

[Inruin]

As I mentioned in the early reply to Wiz - it's not scaremongering, it's fact.

This government is doing all of this.

If you guys are happy with that, fine, say it, and that's how it is.

But the whole "left is picking on us" when the policies are right in front of all of us just don't cut it.

Most of us here I think lived through nz in the 80s and 90s. This is what they do. Thatcher, Reagan, Richardson, Prebble, Douglas, Pinochet, Sunak, Key, Bassett, Seymour, Brash, Hide, Luxon, Milei, any republican in the states, Tony Blair.

This is them. So no problem really, but it's not going away. And if you're happy with what they (National/Act/Nz First) implement great, if not then say so. I certainly will and do. It's corrupt.

I'm saying so, but I'm getting shrill again, so I'll try and be quiet today.

As I have already said as well, it's not all fact even though you are trying to state it as so.

As I have said, there is corruption and agendas across all the parties and previous governments.

And as I have said before, overall I am happy with the direction they are taking. Yes there are some things that aren't perfect which I have spoken about, but taken with everything else going on I believe we will be in a better place than where we were heading. Until the time where the voters decide we aren't.