Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[MrFrankWhite]

I don't know where you think I said stolen from the rich.

by the rich

I'm saying once civilization has been established there are rich, middle and poor. All on different scales. When you're at the bottom of the pile, it's hard to leave. It's not like a smart educated person who goes bankrupt. We're talking either generations of family violence, or trauma or uneducated.

But you are completely ignoring that the same wealth creation happened during the establishment of civilisation and just glossing over it. How did poor people get rich when there was no rich people?

If you go to a South Auckland high school. You'll see how they are disadvantaged. A example and yes it's anecdotal, is a year 13 student got a free scholarship to polytech. But it was far away and they would need to bus. They declined it because it was too difficult and they needed to get a job to support the family.

So? people used to cross continents to uncover wealth. Read any contemporary gold miners stories. Incredible hardship. You expect my heart to bleed about a student having to catch a bus or work?

 

[miket12]

Wealth tax would be a great start. Getting back democracy from the oligarchs and corporate backers another.

Greens Party economics 101.

In May 2025, the Greens released an alternative budget which included stating that their proposed tax changes, including the wealth tax, would raise the government's tax revenue to approximately $200 billion PA. This included, again from their alternative budget, raising $72 billion over four years from it's proposed wealth tax... an average of $18 billion each year from that wealth tax. That means that 9% of the annual tax revenue would come directly from the wealth tax.

But there's a huge problem with their projections. Norway is the only country where the wealth tax is national (Spanish regions can alter their wealth tax such as Madrid and Andalusia which off a 100% effectively meaning there is no wealth tax there and Switzerland's is regional). So, off all the countries in the OECD, Norway is the only country to have a fully nationalised wealth tax. The wealth tax is set at a much lower threshold than that proposed by the Greens and at a higher percentage. Yet, their wealth tax only generates 1.5% of their total tax revenue.

So how, the NZ Greens expect to be able to raise four times the amount of tax with higher thresholds and lower tax rates.

Sorry, but it doesn't add up.

Green Budget proposes $22b wealth and private jet taxes

The Green Party says its would raise $88 billion in taxes over four years to expand public services and reduce poverty if able to lead a government

www.interest.co.nz

 

[Damo]

Greens Party economics 101.

In May 2025, the Greens released an alternative budget which included stating that their proposed tax changes, including the wealth tax, would raise the government's tax revenue to approximately $200 billion PA. This included, again from their alternative budget, raising $72 billion over four years from it's proposed wealth tax... an average of $18 billion each year from that wealth tax. That means that 9% of the annual tax revenue would come directly from the wealth tax.

But there's a huge problem with their projections. Norway is the only country where the wealth tax is national (Spanish regions can alter their wealth tax such as Madrid and Andalusia which off a 100% effectively meaning there is no wealth tax there and Switzerland's is regional). So, off all the countries in the OECD, Norway is the only country to have a fully nationalised wealth tax. The wealth tax is set at a much lower threshold than that proposed by the Greens and at a higher percentage. Yet, their wealth tax only generates 1.5% of their total tax revenue.

So how, the NZ Greens expect to be able to raise four times the amount of tax with higher thresholds and lower tax rates.

Sorry, but it doesn't add up.

Green Budget proposes $22b wealth and private jet taxes

The Green Party says its would raise $88 billion in taxes over four years to expand public services and reduce poverty if able to lead a government

www.interest.co.nz

This will never get across with any coalition partners so not worth worrying about imo.

 

[miket12]

This will never get across with any coalition partners so not worth worrying about imo.

And I didn't think that National would be stupid enough to give tax breaks to Tabacco companies.... then came the coalition agreement.... then came the tax breaks.

Miket's observations... politicians from all sides lie and would sell their mothers to get into power.... even if it meant making a wealth tax.

My vote goes to whoever I think is lying the least and would do what's best, not for me, but for the country.

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

Miket's observations... politicians from all side lie and would sell their mothers to get into power.... even if it meant making a wealth tax.

Preach.

We need to question politicians more, not ridicule each other.

 

[Damo]

And I didn't think that National would be stupid enough to give tax breaks to Tabacco companies.... then came the coalition agreement.... then came the tax breaks.

Miket's observations... politicians from all sides lie and would sell their mothers to get into power.... even if it meant making a wealth tax.

My vote goes to whoever I think is lying the least and would do what's best, not for me, but for the country.

Fair cop. I just think this particular Greens policy would be political suicide and surely won't be taken on by the majority coalition partner.. but do see your point!

 

[tyrael]

by the rich

But you are completely ignoring that the same wealth creation happened during the establishment of civilisation and just glossing over it. How did poor people get rich when there was no rich people?

So? people used to cross continents to uncover wealth. Read any contemporary gold miners stories. Incredible hardship. You expect my heart to bleed about a student having to catch a bus or work?

I've gone over some of this stuff. You might have missed it during your break.

 

[Worried2Death]

by the rich

But you are completely ignoring that the same wealth creation happened during the establishment of civilisation and just glossing over it. How did poor people get rich when there was no rich people?

So? people used to cross continents to uncover wealth. Read any contemporary gold miners stories. Incredible hardship. You expect my heart to bleed about a student having to catch a bus or work?

How would your ideal society be structured, warrior kings at the top?

 

[MaybeTop8]

How would your ideal society be structured, warrior kings at the top?

Goggins followed by putin, Nigel farage, andrew tait and Pete hegseth

 

[MrFrankWhite]

One of the things that I reflected on over the weekend was how London has a lot of social housing in central, wealthy areas. After WWII, a lot of the city was destroyed and rebuilt, which included large social housing buildings within the hearts of wealthy areas (e.g. Notting Hill etc).

Your point got me thinking. There is actually a decent amount of social housing in wealthy areas with good schooling - Parnell, Remuera, Meadowbank, Westmere etc. A good solution to the generational poverty / education issue is to use properties in these sorts of areas for families that are sending their children to the local schools. Once the kids have finished their local schooling, move the family on and move another family in. That way, at least the usage of the property is maximised for its best use.

There are plenty of KO tenants in these areas that have been in the same house for decades. What's the point of a single OAP occupying a double grammar zone flat, when it could be better used for a family giving their kids a grammar education

If the hypothesis is true, then I ask why and by what mechanism?

Because otherwise it looks like being around poor people leads to poor outcomes.

And how does it square with @tyrael contention?

We're talking either generations of family violence, or trauma or uneducated.

Because if these are insurmountable systemic issues, how are they solved by living near rich people?

 

[MaybeTop8]

This is the right, protecting their own. The coalition's maga tactics on display again


View: https://bsky.app/profile/publicaddress.bsky.social/post/3ml5jkpccgk2b

 

[miket12]

That shows it relative to economy and since ours is bad it looks like we tax heaps. If we reduced tax services go down and it'll only hurt middle and lower income earners.

America also has state tax on top of federal tax. It also has death tax and gift tax. Imagine earning the stuff you have, had made tax on it and then get taxed more because you want to give it away to your children.

Here's a bit of tax information for you to consider.... if the Greens had their way, they would raise the total tax revenue from all sources from the current 33% of GDP to 45% of GDP ($200 billion tax revenue/$445 billion 2025 GDP).

Denmark taxes at that rate but they also allow oil and mineral exploration/extraction to fund it.... we don't.

 

[Worried2Death]

Because if these are insurmountable systemic issues, how are they solved by living near rich people?

Peer pressure?

 

[miket12]

This is the right, protecting their own. The coalition's maga tactics on display again


View: https://bsky.app/profile/publicaddress.bsky.social/post/3ml5jkpccgk2b

I can't find a NZ Standard for steam engines online either..... sometimes things just move on.... or need to be rewritten.

 

[FormerlyJamesW]

I can't find a NZ Standard for steam engines online either..... sometimes things just move on.... or need to be rewritten.

Here ya go.

https://nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/rules/docs/traction-engines-2010.pdf

 

[MrFrankWhite]

How would your ideal society be structured, warrior kings at the top?

Oh h you prefer Luxon and Trump?

But in all honesty, we weren’t discussing systems of government, so unsure why the tangent is necessary?

 

[Worried2Death]

Oh h you prefer Luxon and Trump?

But in all honesty, we weren’t discussing systems of government, so unsure why the tangent is necessary?

Systems of governance aren't tangential to poverty and wealth or whatever we're discussing are they? Seems pretty intrinsic to me. What's your ideal model?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

Seems pretty intrinsic to me.

See that's were you went wrong. Systems of governance are separate to economic structure. Which is why you can have monarchist capitalism and democratic socialism. Pretty easy to disprove

 

[Worried2Death]

See that's were you went wrong. Systems of governance are separate to economic structure. Which is why you can have monarchist capitalism and democratic socialism. Pretty easy to disprove

And communist state capitalism in China, fair point.
Where have you been anyway, in the naughty corner?

 

[MrFrankWhite]

I've gone over some of this stuff. You might have missed it during your break.

this is the only thing I think I missed while overseas. Not sure how this is relevant?

1) Can you show me where they thrive? Indigenous people all over the world are all at the disadvantage. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-2458-14-201
2) How do people get IQ though? Most of it is from parents and then education. But it's pretty dismissive to say getting out of intergenerational trauma is due to IQ. There are smart women who are/were in abusive relationships and stayed. It's not due to IQ.
3) Not unique to Māori but again, if you can show me where these cultures thrive due to being down trodden by the system, let me know.
4) I didn't know about violence being a high valued trait so I had to ask chatgpt (see below). But also, like many societies including european ones, violence was valued to a certain extent.
In regards to education, it's about the society. In Asian cultures and I'm talking mostly Chinese culture which affected Japanese and Korean cultures, was that education was number 1. Educated people were the most prized and kings deferred to them. It was something to look up to. So even if you weren't educated, you admired and looked up to these people and wish your child was like that. European societies weren't like this because of a Royal/King/Caesar model where they were held high (chosen by God) because they were born into it or due to war.
5) Interesting. As an opinion piece, not false but leaves a lot out and blows up what it wants to convey. Inequity is a bigger driver of crime. You'll see it in recent examples like when crime spikes such as petrol syphoning/driving off without paying. These people were probably poor before but it comes to a point where they can't even get the basics; inequity (same with supermarket stealing spree). It's also a large reason why they join gangs.

I know you probably hate Chris Hipkins but if you would humour me and watch 3 minutes of this video.
View: https://youtu.be/NwEuwBg99Cc?si=DjpDZxbSpEUrcvga&t=640 should start at 10min 40sec and watch until 13mins 17sec (less than 3 minutes!)

​

Below is from #4 that I didn't know and had to look up​

What research shows​

Anthropology and history suggest that in many pre-modern societies:

• Warfare and conflict were sometimes common, especially over land, resources, or status
• Warriors could hold status, particularly for courage, defence of the group, or leadership
• But violence was usually regulated, not random—there were rules, rituals, and limits

This applies across very different regions—from parts of New Zealand to the Americas, Africa, and Eurasia.

---

Example: Māori (New Zealand)​

Among Māori, warfare (taua) was an important part of life in some periods before large-scale European contact.

• Warrior skill and bravery were respected
• Concepts like mana (status, authority) and utu (reciprocity, balance) shaped conflict
• Violence was purpose-driven (e.g., retaliation, defence, restoring balance), not arbitrary

Importantly, Māori society also strongly valued:

• Kinship and cooperation (whanaungatanga)
• Spiritual beliefs and ritual
• Leadership, knowledge, and diplomacy

So warfare existed, but it was one part of a much broader value system.