Politics πŸ—³οΈ NZ Politics

What you neglect to do is have any balance.
You admit it yourself that it is all about right wing propaganda.
Maybe if you spread the antagonism around, people might take you more seriously
Where? That's false equivalence Rick, and pointless, again tactic of the right in recent times.

The right are dominant around the world and here.

A right wing mantra is personal responsibility. Isn't it long overdue for the right to take responsibility for the outcomes of their actions?
 
Where? That's false equivalence Rick, and pointless, again tactic of the right in recent times.

The right are dominant around the world and here.

A right wing mantra is personal responsibility. Isn't it long overdue for the right to take responsibility for the outcomes of their actions?
I certainly do take responsibility for mine, can't comment for others.
 
Yes miket12. Regressive

Simple question..... which of the car companies do you think will now decide to build high emitting cars just for the NZ market? They won't... they'll build cars which reach the standards of other countries.

Sorry to disappoint you but Ford aren't going to knock out a few hundred cars like this just for the NZ market because the government changed some rules.

1772668579465.webp
 
Simple question..... which of the car companies do you think will now decide to build high emitting cars just for the NZ market? They won't... they'll build cars which reach the standards of other countries.

Sorry to disappoint you but Ford aren't going to knock out a few hundred cars like this just for the NZ market because the government changed some rules.

View attachment 16058
Nz and Russia, the only two countries in the oecd not to have standards in place.

We'll become a dumping ground, it's happened before.

Very regressive
 
Would have been here by now if Labour didn't cancel them originally.

BTW, don't leave the Greens.... they need all the help they can get ;)
So let's consider if Labour had just gotten into power and done the same actions the coalition of the rich, by the rich, for the rich has done.

ZB would be holding funerals for their hosts as half of them would have had heart attacks and meltdowns, the radio transmitters would have failed due to talkback overload, Wiz would have sold his business interests and been arrested for stalking Chris Hipkins, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

The current government handled the whole thing extremely badly, costing the country hundreds of millions of dollars and delaying a priority nationally significant transit route upgrade.

It's hard for you guys but that's the facts.
 
So let's consider if Labour had just gotten into power and done the same actions the coalition of the rich, by the rich, for the rich has done.

ZB would be holding funerals for their hosts as half of them would have had heart attacks and meltdowns, the radio transmitters would have failed due to talkback overload, Wiz would have sold his business interests and been arrested for stalking Chris Hipkins, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

The current government handled the whole thing extremely badly, costing the country hundreds of millions of dollars and delaying a priority nationally significant transit route upgrade.

It's hard for you guys but that's the facts.
Here's the facts.... it would have been completed by now if, in the early 2020's Labour hadn't rejected the proposal similar to what is now going to happen for one twice as much. Their rejection of that proposal then started the delay.

The original proposal was first given to the Cabinet as a IBC on November 2018 which included two rail-enabled ferries of a similar capacity as what is being built now, redevelopment in Wellington and Picton and at an estimated cost of $775 million.

A DBC was then put to the Cabinet in June 2021 where the size of the boats had increased and required new terminals to be built and the cost had nearly doubled to $1.45 billion.

By late 2022, seismic problems associated with the new terminal in Wellington meant KiwiRail then told cabinet that the project would then cost $2.6 billion.

The last KiwiRail report in 2023 had put the project out to $3.0 billion. That led to its cancellation.... a nearly 400% increase in what we should already had if Labour had allowed KiwiRail to move away from what we're now getting.

Including the money spent already on iRex, the cancellation and the new ferries and terminal, the cost of the project is now put at $1.4 billion. Only accountants on the very left can somehow work out that a saving of $1.6 billion is costing the country hundreds of millions extra.

How many kms of Roads of National Party Significance do you think $1.6 billion could by?
 
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Here's the facts.... it would have been completed by now if, in the early 2020's Labour hadn't rejected the proposal similar to what is now going to happen for one twice as much. Their rejection of that proposal then started the delay.

The original proposal was first given to the Cabinet as a IBC on November 2018 which included two rail-enabled ferries of a similar capacity as what is being built now, redevelopment in Wellington and Picton and at an estimated cost of $775 million.

A DBC was then put to the Cabinet in June 2021 where the size of the boats had increased and required new terminals to be built and the cost had nearly doubled to $1.45 billion.

By late 2022, seismic problems associated with the new terminal in Wellington meant KiwiRail then told cabinet that the project would then cost $2.6 billion.

The last KiwiRail report in 2023 had put the project out to $3.0 billion. That led to its cancellation.... a nearly 400% increase in what we should already had if Labour had allowed KiwiRail to move away from what we're now getting.

Including the money spent already on iRex, the cancellation and the new ferries and terminal, the cost of the project is now put at $1.4 billion. Only accountants on the very left can somehow work out that a saving of $1.6 billion is costing the country hundreds of millions extra.

How many kms of Roads of National Party Significancy do you think $1.6 billion could by?
Again, though, you're including the infrastructure.

Pointlessly, again, if Labour had done all of the actions that National had done there would be a huge outcry, yet, from the right on here....silence.

Out of interest do you have a link to the early 2020s thing?
 
Again, though, you're including the infrastructure.

Pointlessly, again, if Labour had done all of the actions that National had done there would be a huge outcry, yet, from the right on here....silence.

Out of interest do you have a link to the early 2020s thing?
Here's an article from 2022

Advice given by officials.

What was Nicola Willis's advice? "We're only buying a Toyota"?

It's a shit decision from National. end of.




Behind KiwiRail's failed $565 million Budget bid for Interislander mega-ferries
Georgina Campbell
Georgina Campbell
Senior Multimedia JournalistΒ·NZ HeraldΒ·
7 Feb, 2022 05:00 AM
8 mins to read
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KiwiRail is in the middle of replacing its ferries with two bigger rail-enabled ones. Image / KiwiRail
KiwiRail is in the middle of replacing its ferries with two bigger rail-enabled ones. Image / KiwiRail

Last year KiwiRail was celebrating a $551 million contract being signed off for its two new Interislander mega-ferries, but briefings and letters reveal how close the deal was to unravelling.

The saga, which at one point escalated to being a $1.76 billion project, ended with a stern letter from a "disappointed" Grant Robertson.

KiwiRail's existing Interislander fleet of three ferries is ageing, more prone to unexpected breakdowns, and systems onboard are becoming obsolete.

The Kaiarahi ferry was "catastrophically" damaged and in need of European specialist assistance when its gearbox failed in August. It's expected to be out of action until mid-this year.

Read More
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KiwiRail is in the process of replacing these ferries with two bigger rail-enabled ones to make the supply chain across the Cook Strait more resilient.


They can carry twice as many passengers and significantly more freight to meet expected growth over the next 30 years.

In Budget 2019 Kiwirail got $35 million to undertake detailed design work for the ferry project, called iReX (Inter-Island Resilient Connection).

Then, in Budget 2020, a further $400 million was dished out to fund the ferries themselves. At that time it was expected KiwiRail would debt-fund the remaining $700 million.

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Last year KiwiRail was celebrating signing a $551 million contract with Korean shipyard Hyundai Mipo Dockyard. Photo / KiwiRail
Last year KiwiRail was celebrating signing a $551 million contract with Korean shipyard Hyundai Mipo Dockyard. Photo / KiwiRail

But KiwiRail then went on to submit a 2021 budget bid seeking more money. This time the state owned enterprise wanted an additional $565 million.

Advice, briefings, letters, and a Cabinet paper, which have been proactively released and made public, reveal the to-ing and fro-ing that ensued.

Treasury and Ministry of Transport officials were not happy with KiwiRail's latest budget bid.

Costs for the overall programme had ballooned from $775 million in November 2018 to $1.76 billion in March 2021. Portside costs alone had almost quadrupled to more than $1 billion.

Officials raised concerns about the increasing scale and cost of the project, including that its latest business case was still in draft form and yet to be finalised by KiwiRail's board.

Meanwhile, an Ernst and Young review of KiwiRail's capital structure had recommended a debt ceiling of $320 million, hampering its ability to debt fund remaining costs as planned.

Officials recommended deferring the budget bid and ministers agreed.

The decision was not without risk. KiwiRail warned that without the $565 million, the arrival of the new fleet would be delayed and the Interislander service would be compromised.

KiwiRail's existing Interislander fleet of three ferries is ageing, more prone to unexpected breakdowns, and systems onboard are becoming obsolete. Photo / Mark Mitchell
KiwiRail's existing Interislander fleet of three ferries is ageing, more prone to unexpected breakdowns, and systems onboard are becoming obsolete. Photo / Mark Mitchell

That's because there was a critical milestone at stake. KiwiRail had signed a letter of intent with Hyundai Mipo Dockyard in South Korea for the two new ferries.

The letter was due to expire on June 30, just a few months away.

If it expired without a formal contract being signed, the terms and price could be renegotiated. This would open up KiwiRail to another cost escalation, especially considering the increasing price of steel.

KiwiRail's view considered any contract to be dependant on funding certainty from the Crown.

Minister for State Owned Enterprises David Clark wrote to the chairman of KiwiRail's board on April 8 advising the project continued to be of concern to ministers.

"We would like to reinforce the need for more transparent information around the proposed project, options available regarding scope and funding, and reassurances around the management of risks."

Minister for State Owned Enterprises David Clark. Photo / Dean Purcell
Minister for State Owned Enterprises David Clark. Photo / Dean Purcell

Clark asked KiwiRail to prioritise finalising the business case, assess the feasibility of two medium size ferries, and advise what work was planned to test KiwiRail's ability to take on more debt.

KiwiRail deputy chairwoman Sue McCormack and chief executive Greg Miller responded to Clark's letter later that month on April 20.

They said the final detailed business case was scheduled to be signed off by the board in June and would be formally presented to ministers and officials shortly after.

The pair expected the business case would confirm the decision to procure two large rail-enabled ferries as the best option.

"This is because the infrastructure requirements (e.g. wharves, linkspans, seawalls) are, ultimately, similar irrespective of the size of the ferries but the projected revenues decrease in proportion to ship capacity."

The new ships will be much more fuel efficient and produce significantly lower CO2 emissions. Image / OSK Shiptech
The new ships will be much more fuel efficient and produce significantly lower CO2 emissions. Image / OSK Shiptech

By May, the month before the letter of intent with the shipyard was due to expire, Treasury and Ministry of Transport officials were recommending a revised plan.

Essentially, Cabinet would give three ministers the authority to draw down money from a contingency fund for the ferry project if and when required. The exact amount proposed for the fund is redacted in the documents.

This was so the money could be provided in time for the June 30 deadline.

It wasn't going to be possible for officials to assess the business case (which was still yet to be finalised), provide advice, and for Cabinet to approve more funding all in less than a month.

Instead, the Finance, Transport, and State Owned Enterprises ministers would have delegated authority to provide further funding if they were satisfied with the final business case and found the risks and trade offs to be acceptable.

By this time, the cost of the project had changed again because KiwiRail had progressed the design of the port infrastructure including revisiting contingencies. The expected cost was now estimated to be $1.45 billion instead of $1.76 billion.

The new ferries will be able to carry twice as many passengers as the existing fleet. Image / KiwiRail
The new ferries will be able to carry twice as many passengers as the existing fleet. Image / KiwiRail

Between these refinements, KiwiRail being able to take on a little bit more debt, investments by the Picton and Wellington port companies, the funding gap had narrowed to $257 million.

KiwiRail proposed this figure could be made up of $125 million in new Crown equity and $132m in repurposed insurance proceeds from the Kaikōura Earthquake.

The Main North Line railway was heavily damaged in the earthquake and the Crown provided $285 million to reinstate it. This was done on the basis that any insurance proceeds received by KiwiRail would be returned to the Crown - it's this money KiwiRail suggested repurposing.

The detailed business case for the ferries was finally delivered on June 3. Its executive summary said KiwiRail had revisited and retested its preliminary decision on fleet size and configuration.

"It has confirmed that two large, rail-enabled ships is the correct choice.

"This selection is now reinforced by the global increase in steel prices. Sharply increasing steel prices mean today's price for two medium ships would in fact be higher than that of the two larger ships which has been locked-in with KiwiRail's preferred shipyard."

The clock was ticking.

Finance Minister Grant Robertson. Photo / Mark Mitchell
Finance Minister Grant Robertson. Photo / Mark Mitchell

Finance Minister Grant Robertson delivered the verdict in a letter sent to McCormack later that month.

He told her significant risks remained with the project and "elements of the business
case fall short of expectations".

But ministers were conscious of the pressing need to replace the aging fleet, as well as the letter of intent's looming deadline of June 30.

Robertson acknowledged the business case's clear preference for the options of two large rail-enabled ferries.

He asked KiwiRail to address shortcoming in the business case, work with officials to review project governance arrangements, and ensure the total capital cost did not exceed $1.45 billion.

Robertson advised Cabinet had agreed to establish a contingency fund that covered the amount of KiwiRail's shortfall, but it was too early to commit to actually funding the $257 million gap.

This was partly due to the fact the funding shortfall wasn't expected to occur until some time later.


The expectation remained for KiwiRail to find a way to fund the shortfall off its balance sheet, Robertson said.

He said no to the idea of repurposing the Kaikōura Earthquake insurance money and that it should be returned to the Crown as intended.

"We are aware of the significant work that has gone into this project, and the challenges of working with so many stakeholders", Robertson wrote.

"However, we are disappointed that Ministers were given such a short timeframe between the receipt of the final detailed business case and the requirement to approve a Major Transaction based on that information."

On July 1 KiwiRail issued a press release saying it had signed a now binding contract with Hyundai Mipo Dockyard for the state-of-the-art ferries.

KiwiRail acting chief executive David Gordon. Photo / Brett Phibbs
KiwiRail acting chief executive David Gordon. Photo / Brett Phibbs

KiwiRail acting chief executive David Gordon told the Herald KiwiRail was satisfied with the outcome of a contingency fund.

He was confident the project could be delivered for $1.45 billion.

"We've been working hard to ensure that we can deliver the project as promised."

Gordon said contingencies were typically accessed after other funds were used, so the fund had not been drawn upon at this stage.

"We demonstrated the value of this investment and received the confidence of the Government as shareholder. KiwiRail was delighted to enter the ship build contract and we know our customers look forward to the new ferries arriving in 2025 and 2026."

Clark said ministers were satisfied with KiwiRail's transparency and timely reporting on the project.

"Officials from the Treasury and the Ministry of Transport are now observers on the Project Governance Board, providing timely visibility of information on project progress."
 
Again, though, you're including the infrastructure.

Pointlessly, again, if Labour had done all of the actions that National had done there would be a huge outcry, yet, from the right on here....silence.

Out of interest do you have a link to the early 2020s thing?
Of course, any discussion on providing new ferries needs to also include the infrastructure.... we aren't Tasmania. There's no use getting new ferries if you can't dock them anywhere. Kind of defeats the purpose of getting them.

From copilot.. but it links through to the pdf links at the bottom:

Timeline of the change

A clear sequence emerges from the official documents:

2018 (IBC)

  • Two large rail ferries proposed
  • Cost: $775m
  • Conceptual design only
2019–2020
  • Design work begins
  • Costs rise to $1.389b as scope expands
2021 (DBC)
  • Final design grows to ~220m ferries
  • Terminals require major rebuilds
  • Total cost reaches $1.45b
This 2021 DBC is the moment the ferries were formally changed from the 2018 concept to the much larger iReX vessels.

Project iRex timeline.pdf

10_Briefing_Project-iReX-Interislander-and-Ferry-Replacement.pdf
 
Of course, any discussion on providing new ferries needs to also include the infrastructure.... we aren't Tasmania. There's no use getting new ferries if you can't dock them anywhere. Kind of defeats the purpose of getting them.

From copilot.. but it links through to the pdf links at the bottom:

Timeline of the change

A clear sequence emerges from the official documents:

2018 (IBC)

  • Two large rail ferries proposed
  • Cost: $775m
  • Conceptual design only
2019–2020
  • Design work begins
  • Costs rise to $1.389b as scope expands
2021 (DBC)
  • Final design grows to ~220m ferries
  • Terminals require major rebuilds
  • Total cost reaches $1.45b
This 2021 DBC is the moment the ferries were formally changed from the 2018 concept to the much larger iReX vessels.

Project iRex timeline.pdf

10_Briefing_Project-iReX-Interislander-and-Ferry-Replacement.pdf
So what's your opinion of Nicola Willis' decision to cancel that contract?
 
So what's your opinion of Nicola Willis' decision to cancel that contract?
I do think it was the correct decision.

The new area had been identified as being venerable to tides and sea level rises well before it was decided to move the terminal in Wellington to there. They were going to build in a 100 year resilience into a structure which could be under water in 50 years.

The cost to move the staging train yards and vehicle parking to an area with seismic/geotechnical difficulties pushed the cost up too high as did all the new vehicle and rail access to the new site. Keeping the terminal in the same location meant less cost on the approaches to the terminal.

I get the idea that it meant it could be built in conjunction with still running the old ferries longer, but I don't think that justified the additional cost for a few dozen more cars and 400 more passengers on the ferries.

My personal opinion. Part of the money saved on the ferry project should be spent on buying an ocean going tug capable of working in the middle of the Strait with the new ferries. It's an almost criminal decision by the government/WHB to send the one here back to Oz. In fact, I consider this a far worse decision than think anyone in the country would consider cancelling the Labour government ferries was.
 
Got to love how one poster earlier this week attacked a post based on the fact that someone had used the results of a Curia poll..... then the same poster is loving a post based on a Curia poll. Oh well.... I guess it's not the polling company but whether they like the results of a particular poll that matters.

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1772764019009.webp

That said.... Luxon has been a "dead man walking" since the last election... seems to me, almost every time he opens his mouth to speak, he gets a case of "foot in mouth" disease.
 
Got to love how one poster earlier this week attacked a post based on the fact that someone had used the results of a Curia poll..... then the same poster is loving a post based on a Curia poll. Oh well.... I guess it's not the polling company but whether they like the results of a particular poll that matters.

View attachment 16083

View attachment 16084

That said.... Luxon has been a "dead man walking" since the last election... seems to me, almost every time he opens his mouth to speak, he gets a case of "foot in mouth" disease.
Absolutely Miket12
He doesn't need a dentist just a podiatrist
 
Got to love how one poster earlier this week attacked a post based on the fact that someone had used the results of a Curia poll..... then the same poster is loving a post based on a Curia poll. Oh well.... I guess it's not the polling company but whether they like the results of a particular poll that matters.

View attachment 16083

View attachment 16084

That said.... Luxon has been a "dead man walking" since the last election... seems to me, almost every time he opens his mouth to speak, he gets a case of "foot in mouth" disease.
Hey, I've said fauck all Mike. Got to love how I'm singled out. Eh. Mike.

How about that poll though, that's run by right wing pollsters. Maybe the truth is worse huh?
 
Got to love how one poster earlier this week attacked a post based on the fact that someone had used the results of a Curia poll..... then the same poster is loving a post based on a Curia poll. Oh well.... I guess it's not the polling company but whether they like the results of a particular poll that matters.

View attachment 16083

View attachment 16084

That said.... Luxon has been a "dead man walking" since the last election... seems to me, almost every time he opens his mouth to speak, he gets a case of "foot in mouth" disease.
Crimes down (apparently)... Unfortunately the polls are way further down.
 
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