Politics 🗳️ NZ Politics

[wizard of Tauranga]

Agree with you about the uncertainty of the costs except for Winston proclaiming how he is saving the taxpayers (millions) before prices are known

Labour plan was two supersized ferries with massive upgrades at each end including to allow rail loading and unloading.

Peters plan is for the same size as now and only minor upgrades to Picton.

I can’t see how the costs can be anywhere near similar due to the difference in scale.

 

[John Nick]

Yeah but again who knows - Winston probably shouldn’t be making those claims at this point… but he’s a politician right, that’s what they do. But I haven’t heard anyone from the industry say they expect costs will blowout anywhere near what was projected under Labours plan - have you?

No but they are expecting inferior vessels. Nobody has any clue about what the final figures will be for the finished project and anything else is pure guessing until ALL the final contracts have been let approved and signed. Of course blowouts will more than likely happen.
And of course WP is at his usual place and puffing himself up.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

No but they are expecting inferior vessels. Nobody has any clue about what the final figures will be for the finished project and anything else is pure guessing until ALL the final contracts have been let approved and signed. Of course blowouts will more than likely happen.
And of course WP is at his usual place and puffing himself up.

Yes of course inferior vessels but highly improbable it will be an inferior return on capital for NZ Inc.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Yes of course inferior vessels but highly improbable it will be an inferior return on capital for NZ Inc.

It already is.

 

[MaybeTop8]

No but they are expecting inferior vessels. Nobody has any clue about what the final figures will be for the finished project and anything else is pure guessing until ALL the final contracts have been let approved and signed. Of course blowouts will more than likely happen.
And of course WP is at his usual place and puffing himself up.

And when/how/how much does the existing infrastructure need to be upgraded - that's aging fast I believe.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

It already is.

What are you talking about?

 

[John Nick]

And when/how/how much does the existing infrastructure need to be upgraded - that's aging fast I believe.

It's not fit for purpose now. As I posted earlier the current ships have berthing issues with the current infrastructure which regularly causes damage and that may affect timetables and other uncertainties.. All this is variable due to winds tides and conditions. Obviously the ongoing problems and associated costs are impossible to assess.
As I understand Wellington has a MMA ocean going tow enabled tug on some sort of lease arrangement which won't be cheap. Again not calculated for.

 

[MrFrankWhite]

I'm starting to prefer FPTP over mixed member with proportional lists

MMP is people power.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

It's not fit for purpose now. As I posted earlier the current ships have berthing issues with the current infrastructure which regularly causes damage and that may affect timetables and other uncertainties.. All this is variable due to winds tides and conditions. Obviously the ongoing problems and associated costs are impossible to assess.
As I understand Wellington has a MMA ocean going tow enabled tug on some sort of lease arrangement which won't be cheap. Again not calculated for.

But not fit for purpose doesn’t mean multi-billion dollar infrastructure upgrades.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

It already is.

Hey I wasn’t looking for laughs, I wanted to understand your point about inferior return on capital (and then dismiss it to the boundary )

 

[John Nick]

But not fit for purpose doesn’t mean multi-billion dollar infrastructure upgrades.

Absolutely but what it does mean is ongoing disruptions for freight and passengers and unbudgeted costs. I would assume that the problem will only be exasperated for the new ferries unless alterations are effected before arrival. Again unbudgeted

 

[MrFrankWhite]

in part I assume because he’s not even living in NZ

Must be talking about Mooloolaba, Nelson

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Absolutely but what it does mean is ongoing disruptions for freight and passengers and unbudgeted costs. I would assume that the problem will only be exasperated for the new ferries unless alterations are effected before arrival. Again unbudgeted

Yes disruptions but cargo and passengers are still getting to where they need to get, just less efficiently. As for infrastructure upgrades, I’d have thought something in the low hundreds of millions would cover it? Napier & eventually Tauranga’s projects would be approximates wouldn’t they?

 

[John Nick]

Yes disruptions but cargo and passengers are still getting to where they need to get, just less efficiently. As for infrastructure upgrades, I’d have thought something in the low hundreds of millions would cover it? Napier & eventually Tauranga’s projects would be approximates wouldn’t they?

Nobody has any idea of the cost or if any upgrades will be done. Remember it being done as cheaply as possible. NZ as usual kicking the can further down the road. That's what we do to make the current books look good regardless

 

[Inruin]

Yes disruptions but cargo and passengers are still getting to where they need to get, just less efficiently. As for infrastructure upgrades, I’d have thought something in the low hundreds of millions would cover it? Napier & eventually Tauranga’s projects would be approximates wouldn’t they?

There were going to be disruptions regardless.

About $596 million would be for a contract with the shipbuilder to build the new ferries, while $531 million would go towards infrastructure works in Picton, $325 million to be spent in Wellington, and $415 million in management and continengency costs

Govt reveals costs of its new Cook Strait ferries

Rail Minister Winston Peters described the new "no nonsense" infrastructure programme as helping save the taxpayer billions.

www.1news.co.nz

 

[John Nick]

There were going to be disruptions regardless.

About $596 million would be for a contract with the shipbuilder to build the new ferries, while $531 million would go towards infrastructure works in Picton, $325 million to be spent in Wellington, and $415 million in management and continengency costs

Govt reveals costs of its new Cook Strait ferries

Rail Minister Winston Peters described the new "no nonsense" infrastructure programme as helping save the taxpayer billions.

www.1news.co.nz

My point is that if alterations are not made to the current infrastructure the disruptions will be going on forever.
Why wouldn't you want the changes made now and fit for purpose while we have the opportunity.

 

[MaybeTop8]

Hey I wasn’t looking for laughs, I wanted to understand your point about inferior return on capital (and then dismiss it to the boundary )

The original component of the ferry deal was an excellent one, well negotiated for a substantial discount. The cancellation fees and the inferior ferries add up to a higher cost for lesser quality - then again we were promised corollas as I recall so we have those. Just not at a higher cost than the originals, and with the added security concerns being built in China.

And there is a bill to pay on the infrastructure regardless, so I agree fully with John Nick in terms of kicking the can down the road.

The current government fucked up completely cancelling the original ferries.

Especially when you look at how readily available the money seems to be to increase defense spending and build roads no one has asked for apart from the roading lobby and the fossil fuel folks.

 

[Inruin]

The original component of the ferry deal was an excellent one, well negotiated for a substantial discount. The cancellation fees and the inferior ferries add up to a higher cost for lesser quality - then again we were promised corollas as I recall so we have those. Just not at a higher cost than the originals, and with the added security concerns being built in China.

And there is a bill to pay on the infrastructure regardless, so I agree fully with John Nick in terms of kicking the can down the road.

The current government fucked up completely cancelling the original ferries.

Especially when you look at how readily available the money seems to be to increase defense spending and build roads no one has asked for apart from the roading lobby and the fossil fuel folks.

But the new ones are able to navigate areas that the previous governments wouldn't have been able to and the cost of upgrading the infrastructure which is happening is far less than previous as well, which was over engineered by all accounts. It's actually what should have happened n the first place.

As a total package it is a better cost, more versatile with navigating and more appropriate to NZ size.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Nobody has any idea of the cost or if any upgrades will be done. Remember it being done as cheaply as possible. NZ as usual kicking the can further down the road. That's what we do to make the current books look good regardless

Yes by at the same time it would have been very stupid to have carried forward with a project forecast to make a low single digit return on capital - funded of course by all of us.

 

[John Nick]

Yes by at the same time it would have been very stupid to have carried forward with a project forecast to make a low single digit return on capital - funded of course by all of us.

Change of subject sorry but I have just read the article about the proposal of the government to cancel the arrangement for MMA vessel Vision early in the NY. This will affect the overall safety of all the aging ferries. Given the number of close calls in the last couple of years that's very dangerous