Noitall
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Israel is the be end and all end to the god squad no matter what they do because it’s gods will
Social ⚔️ Palestine, Israel war.
- Thread starter sup42
- Start date
Has coexistence of radically different cultures worked anywhere with equal power (co-governance)?
What’s the solution?
Yes, Palestine itself, before Zionism. Jewish, Muslim, and Christian communities lived side by side for centuries. This conflict isn't ancient. It started with a colonial project that needed ethnic dominance to work. Current apartheid conditions don't work, dominating a population will always lead to resistance.
The solution here is the same as it's always been. End the occupation, recognise Palestinian statehood, stop the settlements. The obstacle isn't that nobody knows the solution. The obstacle is that Israel won't accept it and the West won't pressure them to.
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I don’t want to go into details but this goes way back in the area.
It’s been ruled by the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Roman, Byzantine, Arab caliphates, Ottoman Turks, British, etc.
Since colonialism stopped it’s been squabbled over with both sides having legitimate historical ties but ongoing trauma.
I can’t see a solution as both sides want control and power.
"Since colonialism stopped" lol, the occupation is colonialism.
The long history of empires ruling the region doesn't really explain the current conflict though. This isn't ancient. The occupation began in 1967, the blockade in 2007. And "both sides want control" dismisses a massive power imbalance. One side has a state, an army, nukes, and Western backing. The other has none of those things.
My opinion is that this goes back 1000’s of years. Yes, the current issues are from 1967 but the underlying issues are way older. Yes, the power imbalance is real.
‘before Zionism. Jewish, Muslim, and Christian communities lived side by side for centuries.’ - Yes, under colonialism.
I still don’t see a realistic long term solution. In fact the more the disparity in wealth and lifestyles (reflected in that power imbalance) the harder it is for coexistence and for them to live side by side.
The OFFICIAL Hamas Charter 1988:
Just to demonstrate that Hamas and radical Islam is a major problem and it is seated in extremist religious belief.
Note (COMMENTS IN CAPS, WITHIN BRACKETS IS ME AND NOT THE CHARTER)
Article 7
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Article 8
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
Aricle 13
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Article 15
It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).
Article 22 (TYPICAL JEWS ARE BEHIND EVERYTHING TALK) "The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it."
Article 32 "Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (THEY SAY THIS EVEN THOUGH ISLAM INVADED HUGE SWATHS OF LAND AND COLONISED NUMEROUS COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. HAMAS SEES THEMSELVES AS THE ANSWER TO JEWS/ZIONISM - THEY WANT TO ERADICATE THEM- OR AS SOME WOULD USE THE WORD COMMIT GENOCIDE) "The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews."
Just to demonstrate that Hamas and radical Islam is a major problem and it is seated in extremist religious belief.
Note (COMMENTS IN CAPS, WITHIN BRACKETS IS ME AND NOT THE CHARTER)
Article 7
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Article 8
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
Aricle 13
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Article 15
It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).
Article 22 (TYPICAL JEWS ARE BEHIND EVERYTHING TALK) "The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it."
Article 32 "Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (THEY SAY THIS EVEN THOUGH ISLAM INVADED HUGE SWATHS OF LAND AND COLONISED NUMEROUS COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. HAMAS SEES THEMSELVES AS THE ANSWER TO JEWS/ZIONISM - THEY WANT TO ERADICATE THEM- OR AS SOME WOULD USE THE WORD COMMIT GENOCIDE) "The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews."
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Here's some interesting reading about Middle Eastern Colonisation by Islamic invaders - that's why we have HAMAS:
"Why do the barbarians rebel? Why do these wolves appear? ... God has called them from the ends of the earth in order to devour the flesh of the Israelites, to suck the blood of Christians ... They have invaded our lands, they have ruined our cities, they have burned our churches, they have killed our priests, they have carried off our women and children into captivity." Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (7th century, contemporary eyewitness), quoted in Robert G. Hoyland's "Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam" (Darwin Press, 1997, p. 69-70), describing the Arab Muslim invasion of Palestine as a devastating incursion involving destruction, enslavement, and occupation.
"The Saracens, or Arabs, like the Scythians of old, were notorious robbers; accustomed to a life of rapine; and their conquests were not less sudden or less extensive than those of the Barbarians ... They invaded Syria and Palestine, and subdued those countries with astonishing rapidity." — Edward Gibbon, historian (18th century), in *The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire* (Chapter 51, 1776-1789), depicting the Arab Muslim invasions as rapid, robber-like conquests that subjugated and colonized Syria and Palestine, akin to barbarian expansions.
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There is a reason Egypt have locked their border with Hamas in charge.
Building tunnels and bases under hospitals and schools etc. Using aid money to build them and increase supplies of weapons.. Using civilians as shields. Raiding and stockpiling food meant for the population and on selling it to them.
And for all the talk of genocide, Israel has a well trained and equiped army that could do that very easily if that was the goal.
70000+ reported deaths (that's Palestine numbers given), which includes Hamas members, natural deaths, deaths from rockets misfired from inside Gaza intended for Israel as well as the tragic civilian casualties. If anything Oct 7th bears more resemblance to genocide,v the stated aim of Hamas.
Israel isn't anywhere near blameless but over the years look at the number of Islamist countries that have taken them on. Over land, religion, philosophy, history.....
A two state solution is an answer but Israel has a right to be sceptical particularly when it comes to Hamas. Time will tell if they disarm and disband but it seems unlikely when they rushed back in as the police force executing 'thier' people in the street as soon as Israel started withdrawals.
This is not just a last few decades problem. Its roots go back centuries for Palestine and thousands of years for Israel.
I must say that Hamas has been brilliant with their strategy and propaganda in all of this. I don't think they counted on Trump winning the election though.
Building tunnels and bases under hospitals and schools etc. Using aid money to build them and increase supplies of weapons.. Using civilians as shields. Raiding and stockpiling food meant for the population and on selling it to them.
And for all the talk of genocide, Israel has a well trained and equiped army that could do that very easily if that was the goal.
70000+ reported deaths (that's Palestine numbers given), which includes Hamas members, natural deaths, deaths from rockets misfired from inside Gaza intended for Israel as well as the tragic civilian casualties. If anything Oct 7th bears more resemblance to genocide,v the stated aim of Hamas.
Israel isn't anywhere near blameless but over the years look at the number of Islamist countries that have taken them on. Over land, religion, philosophy, history.....
A two state solution is an answer but Israel has a right to be sceptical particularly when it comes to Hamas. Time will tell if they disarm and disband but it seems unlikely when they rushed back in as the police force executing 'thier' people in the street as soon as Israel started withdrawals.
This is not just a last few decades problem. Its roots go back centuries for Palestine and thousands of years for Israel.
I must say that Hamas has been brilliant with their strategy and propaganda in all of this. I don't think they counted on Trump winning the election though.
I don't agree with anything Hamas do, but the border is currently open.
Gaza: Israel reopens key Rafah border crossing with Egypt
Only a few Palestinian patients managed to get out of Gaza to Egypt for medical treatment after Monday's reopening.
www.bbc.com
And Israel have officially accepted the 70,000. This is interesting and makes you think it is probably a lot more if they publicly accept that. However, just speculation.
Israeli media cite official accepting Hamas figure of 70,000 war dead
Israel has previously cast doubt on figures from the Hamas-run health ministry, which the UN considers reliable.
www.bbc.com
Noitall
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Triple that at least for those buried under rubbleI don't agree with anything Hamas do, but the border is currently open.
Gaza: Israel reopens key Rafah border crossing with Egypt
Only a few Palestinian patients managed to get out of Gaza to Egypt for medical treatment after Monday's reopening.
And Israel have officially accepted the 70,000. This is interesting and makes you think it is probably a lot more if they publicly accept that. However, just speculation.
Israeli media cite official accepting Hamas figure of 70,000 war dead
Israel has previously cast doubt on figures from the Hamas-run health ministry, which the UN considers reliable.
Yes, Israel allowing Gazans with no link to Hamas.I don't agree with anything Hamas do, but the border is currently open.
Gaza: Israel reopens key Rafah border crossing with Egypt
Only a few Palestinian patients managed to get out of Gaza to Egypt for medical treatment after Monday's reopening.
At least 70000 so bound to be more. They are Hamas's figures so what do you do? That's including Hamas fighters, natural deaths, tragic civilian deaths from Israel and Hamas means etcAnd Israel have officially accepted the 70,000. This is interesting and makes you think it is probably a lot more if they publicly accept that. However, just speculation.
Israeli media cite official accepting Hamas figure of 70,000 war dead
Israel has previously cast doubt on figures from the Hamas-run health ministry, which the UN considers reliable.
Question, If Israel has the iron dome. And the most sophisticated and impenetrable defense that no one from Gaza can break into, Let alone unable to escape from, For decades! How is it for 2 hours Hamas managed to break the impenetrable wall, Make its way in broad daylight without being noticed to a festival that was already fully secured by the IDF. And shoot all these people?
Tell me? Some sort of conspiracy I'm picking though I haven't seen anybody claim they came in on rockets?
I don't know. I don't have a foot in any camp bro. I was a Christian at one point of my life. Not anymore. Nor am I a Islam sympathiser. I do however, Support the women & children being starved to death & murdered daily in Gaza. I'm just wanting to know how they did it as they can't even escape Gaza.
It's not some Wakanda like force field bro. It only protects from rockets, bombs etc. They are still susceptible to land based military incursions. Even rockets can through if enough are fired.
It was claimed via the Israeli president Herzog that in 47 years. There was no breach of the walls. All of a sudden, They did? Lol. Yup.
Well perhaps the Gazans could ask Hamas how they did it. I think that your support is warranted. Why would Hamas deliberately attack Israel killing and kidnapping Israeli civilians, knowingly placing Gazan women and children in harms way, building tunnels and military installations near or under civilian buildings and institutions, deliberately using Gazan civilians as shields, stealing and hoarding aid and selling it to the people it was intended for, hiding in their tunnels but I don't recall any reports of civilians being allowed to shelter there,.
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The 1988 charter gets brought up a lot. Hamas replaced it in 2017 - the updated version accepts a Palestinian state on 1967 borders and separates Judaism from Zionism.
Quoting a 37 year old document they themselves ditched is like quoting Likud's original charter rejecting any Palestinian state. Except Likud never changed theirs, and their guys are in government right now pushing annexation. Lol.
Your historical sources aren't great either. One is a 7th century church leader watching his empire fall and demonising the enemy. The other is an 18th century British imperialist calling Arabs savages, the same way the British talked about basically every non white civilisation they wanted to colonise. Neither are valid perspectives of history then or now.
What you're really arguing is that Islam is inherently violent, so Muslims don't belong in Palestine. But every major religion and empire expanded through conquest during this period, Christianity colonised the Americas, Africa, Australia, the Pacific.
Singling out Islam as uniquely barbaric while defending a state that's currently flattening Gaza is a bit rich.
Your ALL CAPS notes give it away too. You're treating any criticism of Zionism as antisemitism. That's a nice trick to try and shut down the conversation.
My guess is you have a Christian-Zionism bent, and need the Jews in the holy land to complete your own fanatical fantasy!
And you've dodged every point I've made, the ICJ ruling, the PLO recognising Israel in 1993, Netanyahu funding Hamas, Israel calculating caloric intake for Gaza's population. You skipped all of that and defaulted to demonising Islam.
You're horrified by religious language in a charter Hamas already replaced but unbothered by Israeli ministers using biblical claims to justify ethnic cleansing now.
In October, 2023, Netanyahu declared the invasion of Gaza a "holy mission" and "remember what Amalek has done to you."
For context, in the Jewish Torah and the Old Testament God commands the total extermination of Amalek (men, women and children).
Also, Education Minister Yoav Kisch said Palestinians "are animals, they have no right to exist. They need to be exterminated."
In August 2024, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich called it "justified and moral" to starve 2 million people.
In March 2025, Environment Minister Idit Silman said: "The only solution for the Gaza Strip is to empty it of Gazans. God has sent us the U.S. administration, and it is clearly telling us, it's time to inherit the land."
These aren't fringe figures. They're sitting cabinet ministers. There's a treasure trove of genocidal quotes from sitting members of the Israeli Govt. So really, you're not against religious extremism. You're just picky about which one.
Agree to disagree bro. I have watched/read enough news on this conflict to form a personal opinion on it all. And for the sake of peace in the Middle forums lol. I'll keep it to myself. Have a good day my bro.
