General Which player is headed for the Vulcans?

[gREVUS]

I've got both eyes open when I watch Manu.

And he does score loads of tries, because he's 112 kgs, runs like a cheater and jumps like a something that jumps real good. But that's all down to natural talent, not skill.

When he does use his skills he catches balls with ease from all kinds of difficult positions and throws players over the sideline who should score tries.

But he all too often doesn't use his skills, and just fumbles around the park... And for that weakness he needs to spend some time in the Wulcans, just to be a role model to the lesser mortals out there who think they can play below their best and hold their spot in FG.

Have I kissed his ass enough? Ha Ha...

ed when you look at the stats (the only non biased record of his performance for the year) even in a losing team Manu often stands out as one of the top 3. In the last game of the season - a tragic disgrace - if the rest of the team had played at Manus level they would have won. And this isn't a one off performance.

You are heavily critical of his lack of skill vs his natural talent, but I just watched the GF and while they were gushing over the newest great winger (Tupou) I don't remember him taking a single hit up. Played brilliantly mind you, but his team worked around him, meaning he could focus on his role of support play and scoring tries. When the rest of the warriors team step up and Manu doesn't have to take every other run, he might have some energy left to convince you that he has the skill to be in first grade. In the meantime be grateful that hes there and not in the Vulcans, cause as the number 1 scorer of the last 5 (?) years (another fact not an opinion) while it its possible to replace him he wouldn't be my first choice of players to trade out

 

[mt.wellington]

Should rename this thread Manu Residual Value 3.0 hahaha. Has their ever been a more polarising player???

 

[fanrrior]

You guys crack me up

As I've pointed out before, better judges than you and me seem to rate him.

Having natural ability and talent is skill not sure how it's not. Sure he makes mistakes, but name a player who doesn't.

I won't get in the Vatuvei argument. No one likes a broken record.
But just on the part I underlined. Why should the fact that others rate him have any bearing on a persons opinion?

I'd rather think for myself by watching a player and then make a judgement instead of assuming that he's good just because someone else thinks so too.

 

[Xt1ncT]

I won't get in the Vatuvei argument. No one likes a broken record.
But just on the part I underlined. Why should the fact that others rate him have any bearing on a persons opinion?

I'd rather think for myself by watching a player and then make a judgement instead of assuming that he's good just because someone else thinks so too.

Surely when forming said opinion you take all information you can in order to form it.

I base my opinion on the fact that successive coaches have always picked him. His peers would rather he be in the team than not and his opponents the opposite.

Then you have his record - 2 tries every three games is an excellent record. Better than any other Warrior player ever. Better than most other wingers playing the game. You don't score that many tries by having no talent, no skill and no longevity.

Ignoring all the facts for me tells me people dislike him and for no reason set it fact.

 

[edd]

You guys crack me up.

As I've pointed out before, better judges than you and me seem to rate him.

Having natural ability and talent is skill not sure how it's not. Sure he makes mistakes, but name a player who doesn't.

I don't feel like getting into dictionary definitions of the words here, so I will concede the point (because life's too short)....

It's not the mistakes, it's the example he sets. Playing awesome one week, and nervous the next... His stats don't show it, but it's there in his game, and it's a very destructive influence from our most high profile player.

The main reason coach will always pick him is because he gets bums on seats, not because he is a consistent match winner...

 

[edd]

ed when you look at the stats (the only non biased record of his performance for the year) even in a losing team Manu often stands out as one of the top 3. In the last game of the season - a tragic disgrace - if the rest of the team had played at Manus level they would have won. And this isn't a one off performance.

You are heavily critical of his lack of skill vs his natural talent, but I just watched the GF and while they were gushing over the newest great winger (Tupou) I don't remember him taking a single hit up. Played brilliantly mind you, but his team worked around him, meaning he could focus on his role of support play and scoring tries. When the rest of the warriors team step up and Manu doesn't have to take every other run, he might have some energy left to convince you that he has the skill to be in first grade. In the meantime be grateful that hes there and not in the Vulcans, cause as the number 1 scorer of the last 5 (?) years (another fact not an opinion) while it its possible to replace him he wouldn't be my first choice of players to trade out

His stats are under par for his talent. That's all I'm saying. And the attitude that makes him that way rubs off on the whole team.

And when you consider the bigger picture, that our whole teams stats are under par for the talent on our roster, we can see what the Warriors problem is.

Do you think we should be getting beaten by the panthers 62 -6. Is that a fair reflection of our talent, or our attitude... Cause that stat is also a fact...

 

[edd]

Should rename this thread Manu Residual Value 3.0 hahaha. Has their ever been a more polarising player???

He's our most high profile player so he should cop most of the treatment... But he just so happens to have loads of cheerleaders cheering for him no matter what he does... Ha Ha...

"Lets go Manu lets go"... Pomp shake.....

 

[wallacenz]

Surely when forming said opinion you take all information you can in order to form it.

I base my opinion on the fact that successive coaches have always picked him. His peers would rather he be in the team than not and his opponents the opposite.

Then you have his record - 2 tries every three games is an excellent record. Better than any other Warrior player ever. Better than most other wingers playing the game. You don't score that many tries by having no talent, no skill and no longevity.

Ignoring all the facts for me tells me people dislike him and for no reason set it fact.

meli had a similar record who, manu replaced. is it possible another wing with pace or some other attribute could have the same record but be more reliable at the back

 

[gREVUS]

meli had a similar record who, manu replaced. is it possible another wing with pace or some other attribute could have the same record but be more reliable at the back

yea it is possible, but so far the warriors haven't come up with anyone even close.

I don't feel like getting into dictionary definitions of the words here, so I will concede the point (because life's too short)....

It's not the mistakes, it's the example he sets. Playing awesome one week, and nervous the next... His stats don't show it, but it's there in his game, and it's a very destructive influence from our most high profile player.

The main reason coach will always pick him is because he gets bums on seats, not because he is a consistent match winner...

Ed I cant disagree with you more. I don't go to the warriors games to watch Manu. I go to watch the Warriors of which Manu is a team member. If your still trying to make the link that when Manu plays well that the warriors win and when Manu plays poorly the warriors lose, then all your doing is making the argument for me that Manu is indispensable to the team. I also argue that he is not "our most high profile player", with this statement you relegate Mateo, Matalino, Mannering and that's just the M's to the boondocks of obscurity. and don't get me even started on the rest of the alphabet the S's and the T's. He is just an individual in a erratic team that has hit the highs and lows within a single year. When the team is running only in the highs expect Manu to shine, but he wont do it without the rest of the team.

 

[edd]

Ed I cant disagree with you more. I don't go to the warriors games to watch Manu. I go to watch the Warriors of which Manu is a team member. If your still trying to make the link that when Manu plays well that the warriors win and when Manu plays poorly the warriors lose, then all your doing is making the argument for me that Manu is indispensable to the team. I also argue that he is not "our most high profile player", with this statement you relegate Mateo, Matalino, Mannering and that's just the M's to the boondocks of obscurity. and don't get me even started on the rest of the alphabet the S's and the T's. He is just an individual in a erratic team that has hit the highs and lows within a single year. When the team is running only in the highs expect Manu to shine, but he wont do it without the rest of the team.

I'm trying to make the link between Manu being a role model for 'wasting potential', by not being able to control his mind out in the game...

If everyone in the team follows Manus example we will be wooden spooners for sure. IMO...

The fact that a giant winger scores lots of trys doesn't mean he is playing to his potential... It just means he was born with a huge natural advantage over his competitors.. Hardly motivational stuff for us regular guys, who have to bust our asses to get ahead, now is it....

 

[gREVUS]

I'm trying to make the link between Manu being a role model for 'wasting potential', by not being able to control his mind out in the game...

If everyone in the team follows Manus example we will be wooden spooners for sure. IMO...

The fact that a giant winger scores lots of trys doesn't mean he is playing to his potential... It just means he was born with a huge natural advantage over his competitors.. Hardly motivational stuff for us regular guys, who have to bust our asses to get ahead, now is it....

I cant even remember the number of games where he has lifted the team by an individual performance, providing the big hit, or the inspirational play at just that time to make a turn around in the way the game is going. At the start of this year I wouldn't have considered him for the world cup, but based on his attitude, work ethic, skills and talent he has to be a shoo in now. If only everyone in the team would follow his example we would be grand finalist for sure . IMO[DOUBLEPOST=1381116574][/DOUBLEPOST]And quite respectfully I can understand why Fanrrior doesn't want to post anymore re Manu, I know I sound like a broken record, I try to keep my fingers quiet because I always feel like I have to defend Manu. But the reality is now days I just try and point people to the facts as they make a better argument than I ever could re how influential, how good he is and has been.

 

[edd]

I cant even remember the number of games where he has lifted the team by an individual performance, providing the big hit, or the inspirational play at just that time to make a turn around in the way the game is going. At the start of this year I wouldn't have considered him for the world cup, but based on his attitude, work ethic, skills and talent he has to be a shoo in now. If only everyone in the team would follow his example we would be grand finalist for sure . IMO

And quite respectfully I can understand why Fanrrior doesn't want to post anymore re Manu, I know I sound like a broken record, I try to keep my fingers quiet because I always feel like I have to defend Manu. But the reality is now days I just try and point people to the facts as they make a better argument than I ever could re how influential, how good he is and has been.

Your missing my point. But anyway. We'll get rid of Locke for doing exactly what Manu does and say no more about it...

 

[gREVUS]

Edd

Your missing my point. But anyway. We'll get rid of Locke for doing exactly what Manu does and say no more about it...

I haven't missed your point I just see it a different way.

You see Manu as a destabilising influence and focus on his mistakes and poor games. Where as I look at the team as a whole and Manu as a part of that team.

Look at the wolfman last night. he was worse than awful, but the team wasn't. Manu and the warriors are not like that, when the team goes well you see the best out of him. Have other teams targeted his perceived deficiencies, yes, will they continue to yes. Every team targets the wings - it makes sense.

In a defensively based game like the nrl, one player can not often be held responsible for a lack of defence. If he were the coach would pull him and replace him immediately. But in the same game one player can lift a team on attack. Manu has shown this many times in the past.

Manu has proven abilities in both attack and defence, just stop him being used as a battering ram for 80 mins, provide a shield when he is running on to a high ball (this should be true for everyone in the back line not just Manu), find some consistency of centres to build a partnership and IMO those deficiencies disappear and he is left to shine. This truth also applies to whoever is on the other wing as well. And on that day that someone else does become the top try scorer for the year then let them look at the record Manu has created and see what a mountain they still have to climb.

 

[Tyrael]

sorry, which one are you referrring to?

I hope you don't mean Ropo. Though, if he is resigned for exactly what the long service allowance is, then I don't care if he is a Vulcans depth player. He should only get game time in NSW Cup if someone is filling in in first grade or is out injured at NSW Cup level.

Sam Raps

 

[¿N. ig-mah¿]

Sam Raps

OK. I stand by what I said though. I feel the game has changed enough that he is no longer big enough to be prop. If we had a need for more second rowers, then I would shift him there, but we are fully stocked there. In my opinion, he should only play first grade until we find a large prop to take his spot.

 

[Tyrael]

OK. I stand by what I said though. I feel the game has changed enough that he is no longer big enough to be prop. If we had a need for more second rowers, then I would shift him there, but we are fully stocked there. In my opinion, he should only play first grade until we find a large prop to take his spot.

Oh yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just mentioned that he got an extension. Gubb and Matagi have been great the games that they played. Obviously with Mutts and Lillyman there plus Lousi brothers we are going good.

 

[fanrrior]

Surely when forming said opinion you take all information you can in order to form it.

I base my opinion on the fact that successive coaches have always picked him. His peers would rather he be in the team than not and his opponents the opposite.

Then you have his record - 2 tries every three games is an excellent record. Better than any other Warrior player ever. Better than most other wingers playing the game. You don't score that many tries by having no talent, no skill and no longevity.

Ignoring all the facts for me tells me people dislike him and for no reason set it fact.

I do try to take all information when forming an opinion. I just don't see someone else's opinion in of itself as necessary information. If one of the coaches gives their reasoning that shows how he formed his opinion of the player, I'd definitely take that into account. But I'm not about to believe that a player is good just because Elliot or Cleary tells me to. Nor would I start believing in something just because the vast majority thinks it to be true.

As far as try scoring rates go, it only shows a bit of the picture. There are many variables in this particular record and other stats that tell less than impressive feats. For the sake of avoiding repetition, I won't go further than that.

I'd like to think that I do take account of all the necessary facts regarding Vatuvei. I would happily consider new information whether it supports my position or not. However when forming my opinion on a winger I just value some features more than others. Quite simply, I prefer reliability over inconsistency and teamwork over dependency. Vatuvei is too inconsistent for my liking and we are way more dependent on a winger than any team should be.

 

[BA-AD Luck]

I will start '14 with this team in the Vulcs:
Fusitua, Hukatai, Peyroux, Laumape, Lolohea V, Tuimavave, Godinet, Lousi, Leuluai, Gubb, Faitala-Mariner, Henry (c), Bhana, Havili, Sam Lousi, Vete, Palavi
Looking to give a few games in Vulcans to:
Nielsen & Vatuvei, T Lolohea, James Taylor, Matagi (to freshen up)
Finish the Vulcans season with:
Fusitua, Hukatai, Peyroux, Laumape, Lolohea V, Tuimavave, Townsend/Godinet, Sione Lousi, Friend, Gubb, Lowrie, Henry, Palavi, Havili, Vete, Papalii, Faitala-Mariner

 

[Weno]

I have been guilty of wanting Manu to move into the forward pack.
Appreciate everything he has done for us as a wing man. He is one of a kind,
and is capable of things no other wing man can do.
He just isn't the player he once was at the moment, and I just hope he finds a way to either re invent
himself or adds a new string to his bow (found a step this year).
To young to be put to pasture and be a mentor for young rising Vulcans/U/20 players as a Vulcan.