It's simple, Moon has more skill and experience. The 'youngsters' you are talking about are still teenagers who have played little to no NRL games. Moon has played in 2006, 2007 and 2008 in the NRL. You can't grow that from the Under 20's guys overnight, you have to buy it and bring the others in slowly.
Maybe that means BOTH not one of those guys is the solution? And no I'm not saying throw them in there now (That'd ruin the U20's chances of winning the comp
) But maybe next year or the year after they could be. Their combination could develop and maybe turn into something special.Joel Moon was a teenager a couple of month a go and besides these guys have to play NRL sometime.
Personally I don't see why we've signed a youngster to fix our so called halves problems.
He's the 5th choice half at the Broncos!!!
Now I don't see how a 20 year old, who has had NRL experience sure but little to none in the halves is going to fix our so called halves problems??
I hope he does, but can you explain to me how he's going to do so?
Because from what I saw of him on Friday night, he lacked a good kicking game and control of the team, something you want from your playmakers?
Did he just have a bad game (apart from one good run for a try)?
I suppose we have to put that match on friday into perspective a little. Moon has been playing centre and was then put into halfback despite his preferred position being five eight on a week's notice after only a week of training in the position alongside a make shift Broncos team that's been torn apart by injury and suspension to key playmakers who the other players are used to.
Compare that to when he comes here with a full off season and preperation in hopefully the five eight position where he represented Australia at the junior levels and recieved accolades and hype for being an instinctive natural five eight which seem to have become a rarity in the modern game.
If he can adjust to life in NZ and is allowed to play his natural game I think we might have made a very astute signing with Moon. Of course there's no gaurantees and for whatever reason he might flop, but it's not something we're going to know for sure until the start of next season.
i buy that excuse but its funny how ppl dont agree with it in lance hohaia's case
How do you get he's the fifth choice at the Broncos?
Lockyer and Wallace, and then from there it's a bit of a lottery. And to be honest, the Broncos have been going with him lately. Furthermore, he's also the Australian schoolboys half, and from that team he was described as 'The Next Darren Lockyer'. Craig Bellamy wanted this bloke badly, the Broncos even worse and made a good bid to retain him last year. Due to their signing of Folau, they are struggling under the cap and thus he falls out of the team. That doesn't make him a bad player. I would say he's a player with potential, and from the first three signings I think they've deliberated targeted players who can improve. Lillyman's comments reinforce that, and clearly Kemp is already a fine finisher who is only relatively new to league itself so should continue to develop.
I think his kicking game is raw, but it has some length to it.
It's not a so-called halves problem mate, it's a fiasco. None of Ropati, Fien, Rovelli, Hohaia or Witt are outstanding players. Whose to know whether this bloke is either but it was damn obvious we can't keep going in the same direction.
As far as the young blokes, Daniel O'Regan is signed through to 2010 so the signing has nil effect on his long term prospects. Clearly the club view him as a player with massive potential. I'm not sure the contractual status of Isaac John but I dare say he is or will be tied up till a similar period as well.
Because it's been his excuse since 2002. As I said in another thread, we invariably find an excuse to excuse Lance for poor performances. KTF hit the nail on the head, when he goes into a new position e goes well, then after he settles he goes off the boil. Skinny's thread should have been titled not "Why has Hohaia gone downhill" but "Now what should we know with history repeating itself about Lance Hohaia as a footballer". Surely now our lesson has been learned with him.
He's behind Lockyer and Wallace.
And from what i've seen (team lists etc), he's been behind David Stagg, Shane Perry and when P.J Marsh is playing Michael Ennis is preferred in the halves over him.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, I just think in Michael Witt we have a good 5/8 and I think by next year Isaac John will be ready for 1st grade to play halfback, if not Fien!
but u cannot say its not true. wade mckinnon dropped out injuried beginning of the season. round 2 lance hohaia steps in. no experience at fullback, no off-season training at fullback.
chosen in the 19 kiwi squad... ben roberts gets injured so hohaia gets called in playing standoff. hasnt played there since stacey jones was playing in the warriors. do you see what im saying? we arent trying to "make up" excuses for hohaia.
im not defending hohaia's utility value cos imo he doesnt have that much. he should be a specialist hooker and fill-in if there is an injury during the game. im defending hohaia as a player. he is not the crap player u say he is.
I disagree KD. I think David Stagg has been playing a backrowers role in the #6 jersey. Perry has barely played, and PJ has mostly played interchange hooker with Michael Ennis. I remember Louis Anderson playing #6 once for us, and I wouldn't say he was rated ahead of others as a half option, he was just there to plug a gap to suit a particular gameplan.
Lance has failed to take those opportunities. This is the thing, we come up with a plethora of excuses to cover the fact he basically is a fairly below average player with few long term prospects. Lance Hohaia will not win a club a premiership.
Let's review his career;
Starts out whiz bang at 6, soon enough loses out to Motu Tony.
Moves to dummy half, starts out well there and then like always it seems starts to take incredulously poor options, and is removed from there.
Moves to the centres, start out well there using his speed. Then starts becoming a defensive problem and doesn't add much in attack.
Moves to fullback. First few games are excellent, full of energy. Last 5-6 weeks he's been very poor throwing out some woeful options, lethargic and casual in cleaning up at the back and now suffering the yips with the hands.
What I'm getting at is we're starting to learn something the club should have learned 2-3 years ago. You can't survive on a diet of pork chop scraps, every now and then you need authentic T-Bone. You need the quality stuff to get the nutrition you need. We've got our share of scrap pork chops, Fien, Rovelli and Hohaia in particular, and when your quality guys go down like Vatuvei and McKinnon and you're relying on jack of all trades masters of none you find the season turns into one that is very long. Many will say 'Oh yes but this will be good for Lance's future' and various other things, I completely disagree. I think he's past it and not up to this level. 100 odd games of incompetence and a lack of execution is enough for me to say the evidence is pretty damning, irrespective of the shirt number on his back.
Allright fair enough!
At the end of the day I want Joel Moon to do outstandingly well at the Warriors don't get me wrong!
I just feel that, I would of liked to off seen us develop our own rather than sign from other clubs and develop them!
(i.e put Isaac John in the halves with someone like Witt)
I respect you a lot on this forum! And it seems as though you've talked me into agreeing with this signing
looks like you got 2 debates on your hands.
anyway i agree with a lot of points but ur still dismissing the underlying argument that ur basing ur judgement on games hohaia has played out of position.
the number of the jersey does matter. steve price one of the best front rowers in the world. would u call him one of the worst players in the nrl if he played terrible games while playing fullback or standoff.
lets take a look at his career.
came out into the halves while stacey jones was injured. played 6 and 7 during the time. plenty of hype grew with him after a great season and test honours to his name. 2003 he actually got injured lost his spot to thomas leuleui. after that thomas was seen as the new stacey replacement esp after leading the kiwis to victory over the aussies end of year.
2004-2005 hohaia was chosen in the no 9. they reverted monty betham (no 9 in 2003) back into lock. despite what you say hohaia proved he was an excellent hooker. at hooker he was allowed to expose his awesome dummy half runs. HOWEVER i do admit, during hohaia's time at hooker he tried to play like a halfback, running out of dummyhalf trying to lead the attack. a bit of hero syndrome.
anyway as the seasons went on injury hit, new players came in (eg fien, rovelli). this was when fans thought hohaia was being played around. with the new players and no to mention the genius "play faumuina at standoff plan", hohaia found trouble cementing a first grade spot. i would say it wasnt until last season did he actually get to play solid first-grade footy.
last season was when he played centre. he had some memorable matches there namely where he took on the matt king challenge and shut him down. but in the end of the day you know hohaia is not a centre.
this season wade mckinnon gets injured beggining of the season. lance gets told to play fullback in the 2nd round of competition. he is told to play in a possession he has no experience and has had no work in the off-season. he started off well because he IS good footy player. but team start to see his deficiencies eg the high ball. like the centre position, fullback is not lance's position.
basically im saying its not fair that you and others judge hohaia playing a position is not his position basically.
Out of interest, what is Hohaia's position?
I might be dreaming here but I hope the Warriors are building towards a Moon/John halves combination. Given some time I think it could be a good one.
Hopefully John is given the rest of the year in U20 to hone his skills. The most important thing for me in regards to John is that his thought process seems to be in the right area, especially with his kicking game, he just needs the extra time to get the execution side of things right.
Not sure where this leaves O'Regan because I'm a fan of his. I think hed be an excellent ball playing lock and would add an extra dimension to our workmanlike backrow with impact from Fai and Matulino off the bench. Just not sure about where that leaves Luck who at this point is invaluable.
I might be dreaming here but I hope the Warriors are building towards a Moon/John halves combination. Given some time I think it could be a good one.
Hopefully John is given the rest of the year in U20 to hone his skills. The most important thing for me in regards to John is that his thought process seems to be in the right area, especially with his kicking game, he just needs the extra time to get the execution side of things right.
Not sure where this leaves O'Regan because I'm a fan of his. I think hed be an excellent ball playing lock and would add an extra dimension to our workmanlike backrow with impact from Fai and Matulino off the bench. Just not sure about where that leaves Luck who at this point is invaluable.
Allright fair enough!
At the end of the day I want Joel Moon to do outstandingly well at the Warriors don't get me wrong!
I just feel that, I would of liked to off seen us develop our own rather than sign from other clubs and develop them!
(i.e put Isaac John in the halves with someone like Witt)
I respect you a lot on this forum! And it seems as though you've talked me into agreeing with this signing
Where he is at the Broncos really isn't important, it's about where he would be at the Warriors. If he came to Warriors he would be Top 2, and that is really important to remember.
Another point is, you need to stop focussing on age when comparing him to our Under 20s. It's not age, but experience and skill (unless he's 40!). Moon played NRL in 2006, that is 2 years of maturing that Issac John (for example) has not had. He then played 5 (?) games in 2007, and a bucket load this year. You cannot grow that over night, he is at least 2 years ahead of them.
Any back can look busy playing dummy-half, it`s a passenger`s position. UNLESS you actually care about the result. A dummy half has a lot more to do than just try to get the markers offside or gain quick meters when they are on offer. He needs to judge the flow of the game, quickly decide which side of the defense is weaker, make accurate passes, mix it with second-man plays and have a purposeful kick when needed.
Fullback is the position on the field where you have the best angle of the play, so if you show lack of vision in fullback, then no way in hell can you be a quality hooker, let alone half.
Hopefully he`ll find himself a team where he can play in his favourite position for an entire season. Hopefully it won`t be the Warriors.
Sorry I`m talking about Hohaia here.
Fullback is the position on the field where you have the best angle of the play, so if you show lack of vision in fullback, then no way in hell can you be a quality hooker, let alone half.
Hopefully he`ll find himself a team where he can play in his favourite position for an entire season. Hopefully it won`t be the Warriors.
Sorry I`m talking about Hohaia here.
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Personally, I don't think we should be placing too much expectation on Isaac John. Admittedly, I haven't seen all the Toyota Cup games, but he's really only been impressive in one of those(roosters???). The rest of the time he's looked average at best behind a very dominant forward pack. I know he's only young, and halfback is a position that takes time to build into, but for mine, he would need to show a lot more before I would rely on him in terms of who we sign/release for the future.
In saying that, I'm not overly confident Moon is the answer. He obviously has plenty of potential, and was chased hard by Melbourne and Brisbane a year or two ago, but he really hasn't kicked on yet. Here's hoping he can do that here.
In saying that, I'm not overly confident Moon is the answer. He obviously has plenty of potential, and was chased hard by Melbourne and Brisbane a year or two ago, but he really hasn't kicked on yet. Here's hoping he can do that here.
ask him he will tell you halfback.
ask me id say hooker. atilla i agree with you that hohaia's time is pretty much up with the warriors (in fact it has been up for ages), but u implying that hohaia is a crap hooker is just not true. i said that his scoots were awesome and used effectively when he played hooker. he had more assets than that. im not going to sit here and try convince you otherwise. just watch 2005 footage when he played hooker FULL-TIME.
if all the hype is in fact true the moon/john combo would be pretty awesome. dunno if it would be ripe next season tho.
lol that first part just made me laugh.
If anywhere I'd say hooker as well. Good out of dummy half and his support play up the middle is very good when he's not hanging back trying to play halfback when he should be playing hooker. Not to sure about his distribution though, I think that was the part that let him down early 2006 when he started the year at hooker.
It's impossible to say whether or not John will be ready by the start of next season, but what I like most about him is the thought process he has in place. I think he's got a very good head on his shoulders in regards to his own game, it's just a matter of whether or not he can organise the rest of the team with it at first grade level. The execution needs to be tightened up and then we might (touchwood) have a winner.
