edd
Aussies think very highly of themselves, it's only when they start 'acting' like superior beings that the knives come out...
edd
That's right. You can't think about conspiracy theories and making tackles at the same time...
Can't argue with this Ref, but perhaps if more of our tackled players actually looked like they were trying to get up we would draw more penalties.
So tired of watching them just lay there waiting for the tacklers to get off.
Konrad, Sammy, Dominic and Ngani are just about the only ones I can recall thrashing themselves to get up!
However, the 10 metre rule not consistently being enforced is what irks me. It is a farkin joke and in this regard, I think the Warriors are getting short-changed. Which recent game was it where the boys were back 10, but the ref was back 11-12 and so penalised them for being off-side?
Who else watched the Warriors vs Manly U20's game where the touch judge called "forward, forward" on a Manly pass and the ref ignored it and played on? How do you have respect & faith in the referee after something like that, and that wasn't the only incident. I absolutely understand why Mason Lino lost it with him and for his burning need to voice what the entire team was feeling, he got the team marched another 10 at the penalty.
How many 1st graders mindsets are being scrambled by biased inconsistent decisions by the referees?
You make a good point snake77. The editors & journalists of the papers here, and the t.v identities all have their favourite clubs so any disgraceful reffing blunders will be widely exhibited and criticised again & again. The refs themselves live among these communities and want to feel safe walking down the street.
That 'Kiwi" team gets no such benefit. Out of sight....out of mind!
edd
I think the refs are 'unconsciously' punishing us for not respecting their Aussie way of doing things... Just my humble opinion. Aussies don't act superior towards each other, even when they are... Us in N.Z. do! Maybe time for a change of attitude.
edd
If you want to offend a Chinese person: Give them a clock as a present. In good old NZ it's something nice for a friend to put on the wall and tell the time with, but in China it means you are counting down to their death. Very offensive.
If you want to offend a Japanese person: Rest your chop sticks on your rice. In good old NZ it means you need your hands for something else, but in Japan it means you want to kill someone. Very offensive.
If you want to offend a Muslim: Give them a left handed hand shake. In good old NZ it's a lazy way of saying I don't want to shake your hand, but in the Middle East it's offering them your shit wiping hand because you want them to die. Very offensive.
If you want to offend an Australian NRL ref: Act like you are superior to them. In good old NZ it's something we all do to each other without noticing, but in Australia it's like saying “You should be rotting in jail along with the bones of your scum convict ancestors.” Very offensive.
If you want to offend a Japanese person: Rest your chop sticks on your rice. In good old NZ it means you need your hands for something else, but in Japan it means you want to kill someone. Very offensive.
If you want to offend a Muslim: Give them a left handed hand shake. In good old NZ it's a lazy way of saying I don't want to shake your hand, but in the Middle East it's offering them your shit wiping hand because you want them to die. Very offensive.
If you want to offend an Australian NRL ref: Act like you are superior to them. In good old NZ it's something we all do to each other without noticing, but in Australia it's like saying “You should be rotting in jail along with the bones of your scum convict ancestors.” Very offensive.
mrblonde
eudebrito
|-|
Contributor
It's a good rant, on the right track with penalties awarded, rather than just penalties conceded, as I do think discipline has been a point of emphasis from ME this year.
Which might be the right move, as I think if they did try to shoot up aggressively and wrestle more, like a manly or souths, they would get a caning in the penalty count like you wouldn’t believe.
As we know not all pens are created equal, getting one on the first tackle coming out from your goal line is good, getting one on the fourth at the 40m is better and getting one while hot on attack, allowing the defensive line to get set, is worth bugger all.
If it was possible to assign a “value” to each penalty, could start to get somewhere, but without watching every game and noting them down, not really going to happen.
A clever ref could rule a 5-5 penalty count with one team getting them late in the count and at key moments in the game vs, the other team on tackle on 1 and have quite a big impact on the result, though it would look fair from a superficial view of the stat sheet.
Square-ups and dubious penalties are 100% part of the game – they do not want to see lop sided penalty counts and have coaches complain without good reason, so the players just need to hang in when it seems like all is going against them, it will come back around. The first manly game this year was a classic example of this.
Trying to prove active conspiracy is a waste of time though, maybe the refs just don’t like flying to Auckland every 2nd weekend when they could be just driving across Sydney. So sub-consciously they ping the warriors for it.
I often cry conspiracy or racism at home, when calls go against us, I fully believe that Mateo, Vatuvei, Hurrell, are seen as loose carriers of the ball by the refs, and anything short of ripping their arm off with the ball still attached by the opposition will not be called a strip (there will be examples to prove me wrong, I don’t care, it’s what I choose to believe). And that high profile players, Gallen, Slater et al, are held to a completely different set of standards than others.
I do wish referees would just call it by the rules, any not square play the ball, penalty, don’t put your foot on it penalty, 3rd man in around the legs after held is called, penalty, too long in the tackle, penalty.
Instead of picking and choosing what they call due to the flow of the game and what players were involved. Maybe they are just too incompetent to manage that.
Finally, better teams get the better of the calls, its always this way across all sports, I wouldn’t have blamed the refs for not giving the warriors any penalties in the second half of last year, It sure looked like the players themselves weren’t too bothered either way.
Which might be the right move, as I think if they did try to shoot up aggressively and wrestle more, like a manly or souths, they would get a caning in the penalty count like you wouldn’t believe.
As we know not all pens are created equal, getting one on the first tackle coming out from your goal line is good, getting one on the fourth at the 40m is better and getting one while hot on attack, allowing the defensive line to get set, is worth bugger all.
If it was possible to assign a “value” to each penalty, could start to get somewhere, but without watching every game and noting them down, not really going to happen.
A clever ref could rule a 5-5 penalty count with one team getting them late in the count and at key moments in the game vs, the other team on tackle on 1 and have quite a big impact on the result, though it would look fair from a superficial view of the stat sheet.
Square-ups and dubious penalties are 100% part of the game – they do not want to see lop sided penalty counts and have coaches complain without good reason, so the players just need to hang in when it seems like all is going against them, it will come back around. The first manly game this year was a classic example of this.
Trying to prove active conspiracy is a waste of time though, maybe the refs just don’t like flying to Auckland every 2nd weekend when they could be just driving across Sydney. So sub-consciously they ping the warriors for it.
I often cry conspiracy or racism at home, when calls go against us, I fully believe that Mateo, Vatuvei, Hurrell, are seen as loose carriers of the ball by the refs, and anything short of ripping their arm off with the ball still attached by the opposition will not be called a strip (there will be examples to prove me wrong, I don’t care, it’s what I choose to believe). And that high profile players, Gallen, Slater et al, are held to a completely different set of standards than others.
I do wish referees would just call it by the rules, any not square play the ball, penalty, don’t put your foot on it penalty, 3rd man in around the legs after held is called, penalty, too long in the tackle, penalty.
Instead of picking and choosing what they call due to the flow of the game and what players were involved. Maybe they are just too incompetent to manage that.
Finally, better teams get the better of the calls, its always this way across all sports, I wouldn’t have blamed the refs for not giving the warriors any penalties in the second half of last year, It sure looked like the players themselves weren’t too bothered either way.
snake77
A lot of our players being considered as having a loose carry definitely means the opposition get a bit more of the 50-50 calls when it comes to deciding on a strip or a lost ball.
I think if you were going to look at a conspiracy it would have been more in the earlier years. The last few years (the period from 2001-2003 and 2006-2011) since we've been winning a lot more have probably helped remove some of the stereo-types about the Warriors.
I remember a quote in the early 2000's with the Mad Butcher interviewing Robbie Mears went something like below.
MB "Do you think the Warriors get treated differently to other teams?"
RM "There seems to be something there, when I first come over here I thought we were getting some dud calls and was giving it to the ref and geeing up the boys that this isn't right. Some of my team mates just looked at me and shrugged their shoulders and said let it go. A couple of weeks later instead of arguing I just started accepting the calls"
Now that could have been a competitive Aussie who wants to fight for every decision coming into a team of NZers who at the time were not performing consistently and struggling with the week to week competitiveness of the NRL who just accept what the refs call.
I think if you were going to look at a conspiracy it would have been more in the earlier years. The last few years (the period from 2001-2003 and 2006-2011) since we've been winning a lot more have probably helped remove some of the stereo-types about the Warriors.
I remember a quote in the early 2000's with the Mad Butcher interviewing Robbie Mears went something like below.
MB "Do you think the Warriors get treated differently to other teams?"
RM "There seems to be something there, when I first come over here I thought we were getting some dud calls and was giving it to the ref and geeing up the boys that this isn't right. Some of my team mates just looked at me and shrugged their shoulders and said let it go. A couple of weeks later instead of arguing I just started accepting the calls"
Now that could have been a competitive Aussie who wants to fight for every decision coming into a team of NZers who at the time were not performing consistently and struggling with the week to week competitiveness of the NRL who just accept what the refs call.
fizurg
I've never bought into to conspiracy theory. I see try's being awarded to us that I don't always agree with.
I lost interest in the post when it got to assigning a points value per penalty. That was so flawed it was crazy. You could argue using those stats you should never kick for 2 points
I lost interest in the post when it got to assigning a points value per penalty. That was so flawed it was crazy. You could argue using those stats you should never kick for 2 points
rugged
Totally agree re the flaws of trying to assign a points value to each penalty. It doesn't make sense but then again neither does many of the other points.
Akkerz
Contributor
A lot of sense in those words of yours Haydn. It's long been a suspicion of mine that that Warriors are considered good enough to provide income & players to the NRL but will be
'engineered' out of the comp when they become a serious threat. Their 2011 G/F appearance took the NRL by surprise. Must have been quite awkward with the possiblity that the trophey may beheading across the ditch.
It's a professional sport. Honesty doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with who wins. Warriors can only play harder & smarter and hope one day they will get the rewards
'engineered' out of the comp when they become a serious threat. Their 2011 G/F appearance took the NRL by surprise. Must have been quite awkward with the possiblity that the trophey may beheading across the ditch.
It's a professional sport. Honesty doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with who wins. Warriors can only play harder & smarter and hope one day they will get the rewards
Hadyn
I agree with this post.Can't be proven I know but a subconscious bias exists.The point of my initial post was to get The Warriors any advantage we can.To win this comp we need all the help we can get.My point was that I want ME riding the refs via official channels and the media (if it didn't have some effect Hasler,Bellamy,Bennett and Toovey wouldn't bother doing it),I want the crowd riding the refs and I want the players trying to get themselves penalties (I haven't seen any player for the Warriors wriggle on the ground like a fish like Steve Price did since, hell ,Steve Price.Pricey was an intelligent player,he did that for a reason.As I said originally the more penalties you get generally speaking the more points you will score.It's as simple as that.
Brother Faisal
I havent read all of the posts so forgive me if im running over old material.
This is doctrine to me about the nrl. It is nearly impossible to win in the NRL when you have no neutral reffing. As ive mentioned before it is the hardest rugby competition of any code in the world. With it being so evenly balanced and also the way rugby league is designed as a game with 6 tackles uncontested creates equal opportunity for all teams to win it. If you add on top that an average metres gained per set would be around the 50-60m margin so if you put a penalty on top of that with kick for touch of 20-25m, that means you are after a penalty logically in the defending teams 20m by the end of the set.
Now if you have an error that means the other team gets another six tackles so if that error happens in your half that means the opposing team will be in your 20 again in scoring position.
NOW.... if you have reffs against you already that will give a penalty count up of 75% to 25% in the first 70min then youve you shouldve lost already. the last 10mins dont count because if your out of contention to win they will give you 3-4 penalies in the last 10 to make the stats look even. Its the equivalent of our guys being arrested for murder and rape in the first 70min and then the other team get parking fines in the last 10min.
now if another 70% of error calls go against you and 40% of those happen in your own half then you know the rest.
NOW the worst won is now the refs decide their decision and its the video refs job to prove the ref wrong there has to be conclusive evidence hes wrong. so that equals 0 50/50 calls on tries we score that go to the video ref and id say 50% on 50/50s to tries scored against us gone to the video ref.
So the numbers already tell you the outcome, not much we can honestly do, and to be honest one of the worst is perenara but hey he would be out of a job if he was fair but he could show some love sometimes.
anyway thats me on reffs.
This is doctrine to me about the nrl. It is nearly impossible to win in the NRL when you have no neutral reffing. As ive mentioned before it is the hardest rugby competition of any code in the world. With it being so evenly balanced and also the way rugby league is designed as a game with 6 tackles uncontested creates equal opportunity for all teams to win it. If you add on top that an average metres gained per set would be around the 50-60m margin so if you put a penalty on top of that with kick for touch of 20-25m, that means you are after a penalty logically in the defending teams 20m by the end of the set.
Now if you have an error that means the other team gets another six tackles so if that error happens in your half that means the opposing team will be in your 20 again in scoring position.
NOW.... if you have reffs against you already that will give a penalty count up of 75% to 25% in the first 70min then youve you shouldve lost already. the last 10mins dont count because if your out of contention to win they will give you 3-4 penalies in the last 10 to make the stats look even. Its the equivalent of our guys being arrested for murder and rape in the first 70min and then the other team get parking fines in the last 10min.
now if another 70% of error calls go against you and 40% of those happen in your own half then you know the rest.
NOW the worst won is now the refs decide their decision and its the video refs job to prove the ref wrong there has to be conclusive evidence hes wrong. so that equals 0 50/50 calls on tries we score that go to the video ref and id say 50% on 50/50s to tries scored against us gone to the video ref.
So the numbers already tell you the outcome, not much we can honestly do, and to be honest one of the worst is perenara but hey he would be out of a job if he was fair but he could show some love sometimes.
anyway thats me on reffs.
Hey chaps.I rarely post but have been reading league forums for a number of years now. I felt compelled to respond and apologise but this one might be a little long as well.
Interesting post Hadyn. Although I don't buy into a organised conspiracy against us. I do believe there is an ingrained bias. I think I'm quite a fair minded Warriors fan. I am aware of our deficiencies and accept when we have been beaten fair and square. At the risk of sounding like a blowass think I have a pretty good analytical mind when it comes to sport. A lot of the time we are just not getting those 50/50 calls especially in regards to holding down in the tackle. Seriously that Manly game was a perfect example. They were the better team without a doubt. But the leeway they received in the tackle was terrible. I'm sorry but I'm gonna play the race card here. I believe I have a unique insight due to my heritage. I am Euro/Maori but to most people initially assume I am Pakeha. I do not lean towards either side but by doing so have encountered so much closet racism its quite disturbing and disheartening. Some of you will be aware that a lot of the referees/players used to come from a law enforcement background. My good friends dad was a cop in Sydney in the lates 70’s and early 80’s and told me a fair bit about what it was like. He played league at a reasonable level and knew a few refs through his work. Very interesting stories, but shocking the level of racism that occurred. I don’t think it would be hard to imagine that attitude being taken into the culture of reffing back then as well. Now I’m not saying that because this was the culture back then that is still the same now. I think the NRL has made huge strides in regards to the issue of racism and attitudes to women as well. I love the game and find myself defending it a lot through the years. It is my belief that these refs still hold a bit of that old prejudice of “Lazy Islander, violent Maori etc”. How many times have I seen the all Aussie star up in the docks only to be found not guilty as it wasn’t his intention. How can you judge intention? It is my belief that there is a class based prejudice in the NRL just like in real life. Some players are going to cop it more due to a number of factors it just so happens we are the outsiders playing in someone elses backyard. To me its not really the amount of penalties but more then timing of them that raises my suspicions. All this means is that we have to play perhaps 15-20% harder and smarter to win this thing. Again sorry for the long post and the grammar. I'm at work and trying not to get snapped. That’s my 2c.
Interesting post Hadyn. Although I don't buy into a organised conspiracy against us. I do believe there is an ingrained bias. I think I'm quite a fair minded Warriors fan. I am aware of our deficiencies and accept when we have been beaten fair and square. At the risk of sounding like a blowass think I have a pretty good analytical mind when it comes to sport. A lot of the time we are just not getting those 50/50 calls especially in regards to holding down in the tackle. Seriously that Manly game was a perfect example. They were the better team without a doubt. But the leeway they received in the tackle was terrible. I'm sorry but I'm gonna play the race card here. I believe I have a unique insight due to my heritage. I am Euro/Maori but to most people initially assume I am Pakeha. I do not lean towards either side but by doing so have encountered so much closet racism its quite disturbing and disheartening. Some of you will be aware that a lot of the referees/players used to come from a law enforcement background. My good friends dad was a cop in Sydney in the lates 70’s and early 80’s and told me a fair bit about what it was like. He played league at a reasonable level and knew a few refs through his work. Very interesting stories, but shocking the level of racism that occurred. I don’t think it would be hard to imagine that attitude being taken into the culture of reffing back then as well. Now I’m not saying that because this was the culture back then that is still the same now. I think the NRL has made huge strides in regards to the issue of racism and attitudes to women as well. I love the game and find myself defending it a lot through the years. It is my belief that these refs still hold a bit of that old prejudice of “Lazy Islander, violent Maori etc”. How many times have I seen the all Aussie star up in the docks only to be found not guilty as it wasn’t his intention. How can you judge intention? It is my belief that there is a class based prejudice in the NRL just like in real life. Some players are going to cop it more due to a number of factors it just so happens we are the outsiders playing in someone elses backyard. To me its not really the amount of penalties but more then timing of them that raises my suspicions. All this means is that we have to play perhaps 15-20% harder and smarter to win this thing. Again sorry for the long post and the grammar. I'm at work and trying not to get snapped. That’s my 2c.
rugged
How does one explain the dominance of the broncos in the 90s if you believe that the referees are intimidated by the media and by the rugby league administration. When the broncos won their first title the Winfield cup was run by the NSWRL. I am sure a lot of people didn't want the title going to queensland, in fact in my opinion their was way more hate for the broncos in the 90s then their has ever been for the Warriors, but they became the most successful club of the 90s.
Also do you really believe that his year the Warriors are a lot better then the Storm, Manly and the Roosters? We would have to be in a different class to beat these clubs when the referees were helping them.
Also do you really believe that his year the Warriors are a lot better then the Storm, Manly and the Roosters? We would have to be in a different class to beat these clubs when the referees were helping them.
Bluecat again
Contributor
Like a lot have said I too struggle with the idea of a conspiracy but yeah we do seem to get the short end of the stick when it matters. But then I am a fan so maybe I'm biased? I found it interesting that after the Bulldogs game in Wellington Warriors fans were going crook about the standard of refereeing and some of the bad calls yet when I had a look on The Kennel which is a Bulldogs chat site they were saying exactly the same things. I do believe that there is a high level of incompetence in the NRL referee roster that makes a lot of games a lottery and that they will unconsciously side with the high profile players and teams. The number of changes that have been made at the top of the referees management makes me think that all is not as it should be and it can be quite obvious during games that while these guys making the calls know the rules they often have no concept of tactics or of the strategies that the teams may be trying to use and as we saw in the Dogs Titans game on Monday they had no idea of letting the game flow and actually be enjoyable to watch. (Which is the whole point of the huge TV rights deals isn't it?) .
Of course if the Warriors take the dumb bits like grabbing ankles when a players getting up or holding down in the tackles out of their play and muscle up more with some good line speed so that they make dominant tackles and don't let the opposition get close enough on the scoreboard to let a bad refs call make a difference we wouldn't have so many worries
Of course if the Warriors take the dumb bits like grabbing ankles when a players getting up or holding down in the tackles out of their play and muscle up more with some good line speed so that they make dominant tackles and don't let the opposition get close enough on the scoreboard to let a bad refs call make a difference we wouldn't have so many worries
snake77
rugged
I enjoyed your post and insights. I think it would be ignorant not to think that some referees may be influenced by cultural bias . I am interested in asking your opinion on a couple of your points not so much because I disagree but I would be intersted in what you thinks. I notice you only mention Islanders and Maori in your post would you believe that the same would be true for aboriginal players? The Rabbits have a large number of non european players, do you believe they suffer because of this and just play 20% better than everyone else to find themselves near the top?
