Recruitment Warriors Recruitment Discussion 2013

[Sup42]

Mod edit note:

For discussion of Warriors recruitment policy, opinions on who we should sign, and associated ramblings.

This is where sensible Off Topic posts from the Signings thread will end up - don't be offended if your posts are moved.

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A couple of years back we thought that our Champion under 20's side would mean that there would be a rugby league dynasty (2011 x 3 GF teams ).

Konrad Hurrells rappid promotion to first grade and arguably Johnsons was part of that thinking.

Now we're going the other way , a rebuild from the ground up ( Akland gone ) and making the path to first grade longer and less certain ( hello Mr Tomkins and Carney bids ).

Somewhere in between is the right balance.

If Hurrell and his manager did drop their lips over his dropping then that's a concern / part of our big headed young buck culture ( too much too soon ? )

Johnson couldn't even handle being dropped to the bench in a game.

Something has to change , you don't want the Shaun Johnsons and Konrad Hurrells of the future throwing their Weight around / spitting the dummy every time or we're fooked.

The Lunatics running the Asylum comes to mind.

 

[Freddie Futler]

A couple of years back we thought that our Champion under 20's side would mean that there would be a rugby league dynasty (2011 x 3 GF teams ).

Konrad Hurrells rappid promotion to first grade and arguably Johnsons was part of that thinking.

Now we're going the other way , a rebuild from the ground up ( Akland gone ) and making the path to first grade longer and less certain ( hello Mr Tomkins and Carney bids ).

Somewhere in between is the right balance.

If Hurrell and his manager did drop their lips over his dropping then that's a concern / part of our big headed young buck culture ( too much too soon ? )

Johnson couldn't even handle being dropped to the bench in a game.

Something has to change , you don't want the Shaun Johnsons and Konrad Hurrells of the future throwing their Weight around / spitting the dummy every time or we're fooked.

The Lunatics running the Asylum comes to mind.

Great thoughts there Sup, the moment the tail starts wagging the dog we have a major problem.
Perhaps it stems from the Managers putting a flea in their ear as the Managers are the ones that get the most out of transfers and contract upgrades.
Maybe they need a little chat when they get their first contract along the lines of > Hey buddie its only a contract and does not give you permanent rights to a FG spot, your spot is up for grabs every week so if you get benched or dropped its up to you to turn yourself around.

 

[Gizzyfan]

A couple of years back we thought that our Champion under 20's side would mean that there would be a rugby league dynasty (2011 x 3 GF teams ).

Konrad Hurrells rappid promotion to first grade and arguably Johnsons was part of that thinking.

Now we're going the other way , a rebuild from the ground up ( Akland gone ) and making the path to first grade longer and less certain ( hello Mr Tomkins and Carney bids ).

Somewhere in between is the right balance.

If Hurrell and his manager did drop their lips over his dropping then that's a concern / part of our big headed young buck culture ( too much too soon ? )

Johnson couldn't even handle being dropped to the bench in a game.

Something has to change , you don't want the Shaun Johnsons and Konrad Hurrells of the future throwing their Weight around / spitting the dummy every time or we're fooked.

The Lunatics running the Asylum comes to mind.

Generally I don't think it is the player, it is their Manager/Agent. A guy I worked with was a professional coach in Union. He told the story of a player being rarked up deservedly at training and the coach getting a phone call from the players Manager later that night demanded an apology or he would take his player elsewhere. He was rightly told to fuck off.

 

[Defence]

Perhaps it stems from the Managers putting a flea in their ear as the Managers are the ones that get the most out of transfers and contract upgrades.

That depends- if you own the company and do the deals yourself that's true but most of them actually work for someone and are on a salary not commission. For example if u work for Sfx sports- the company will take around 8% of the players deal but the manager themselves will be on a salary- $100,000-$150,000. so although its sill part of their job to make the company money, they don't actually stand to make a financial gain personally if they sign the players to a bigger deal elsewhere.

 

[OMG]

A couple of years back we thought that our Champion under 20's side would mean that there would be a rugby league dynasty (2011 x 3 GF teams ).

Konrad Hurrells rappid promotion to first grade and arguably Johnsons was part of that thinking.

Now we're going the other way , a rebuild from the ground up ( Akland gone ) and making the path to first grade longer and less certain ( hello Mr Tomkins and Carney bids ).

Somewhere in between is the right balance.

If Hurrell and his manager did drop their lips over his dropping then that's a concern / part of our big headed young buck culture ( too much too soon ? )

Johnson couldn't even handle being dropped to the bench in a game.

Something has to change , you don't want the Shaun Johnsons and Konrad Hurrells of the future throwing their Weight around / spitting the dummy every time or we're fooked.

The Lunatics running the Asylum comes to mind.

I agree with the manager, look who he was replaced with, it certainly helped buck his ideas up, but Kon is already a star of the game and any Aussie team would welcome him with open arms on top dollar and put in the defensive structures to alleviate his defensive inadequacies.
Now we are going to have a team half full of imports so our chances of retaining these boys coming through and already in the team has been drastically reduced, the writing is on the wall that we will lose the players that would have set up a dynasty because we won't have the money for competitive contacts for the cream of our u20s, Russell included..
If the players were offered reasonable contracts most would stay even if they were 30% less than what they were being offered, but they do have to look after their futures as their time in the game is really not that long and can be over long before it is due to be, a good Manager would shop him around if he is languishing in reserve grade, it doesn't happen at other clubs, a first grader plays first grade.
Anyone who thinks all the imports is a good thing is mistaken, it is just detrimental to development, we have had this very young team for a few seasons now and the first of the cream has still to reach their prime years, but in the mean time we have been signing basically journeymen or mid range NRL players for the top grade that are soaking up the salary cap leaving not enough to look after the good ones we have developed and are still developing.
The Warriors talent scouts are atrocious, Havili and Tuimavave being retained is just woeful with no having the fore thought to think about what will happen to their body shape over the next few years and thinking they are better than what they actually are, Havili for instance has a massive spread coming that will render him useless for the hooking role, he is a 100kgs now, same goes for Tuimavave, if his defence was better he might have a position in the back row, but not in the 6. Take a look at Simon look at his spread, Mutts,Russell, it doesn't happen to every body but it happens to players with certain body types..

 

[Jordan G]

Who have we lost due to salary cap pressure? We've lost some juniors because they wanted an opportunity elsewhere. I hardly see anything to panic about.

 

[Jay M]

Who have we lost due to salary cap pressure? We've lost some juniors because they wanted an opportunity elsewhere. I hardly see anything to panic about.

given we were operating $1m under the cap (allegedly), I'm going to say no-one (since the days of Wiki/Price anyway)...

 

[OMG]

Who have we lost due to salary cap pressure? We've lost some juniors because they wanted an opportunity elsewhere. I hardly see anything to panic about.

There is a lot we don't know but, we lost the top 3 juniors from last year, because they weren't deemed suitable to hold on to, 2014 at the moment we will have something like 8-9 imports on the books it could be more, as they are yet to make confirmations. There is some very real cap pressure coming, there will be some very good offers for Shaun Johnson and Russell, but there is also a massive amount of the squad coming off contract that will be playing either top grade or reserves and there is talent that we can't lose in that lot or we will back to relying on u20s..Halves and hooker depth will be tested, even now we can't afford for Friend,Shaun Johnson and TL to get injured or the season is over just as it is beginning for us..IMO

 

[Apus]

If you believe the rumors, it looks like we're going to lose Friend due to the cap. We've offered him a reduced salary which he has reportedly knocked back.

I wouldn't be so worried if Parra weren't in the position they are. They're essentially looking to rebuild their entire squad next season, and Sticky has explictly stated he'd need to look to reserve grade for the talent to fill these positions. Given our propensity to give players releases, I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two heading over there.

 

[Jordan G]

You're talking about a lack of depth and not relying on U20's and then complain about imports in the same paragraph who were largely brought here for depth. Then you say these imports will hinder development, but went on to talk about how very young our team was and again how we shouldn't need to rely on U20's. Looking at our imports most of them are experienced hard workers, which I would consider essential for helping younger players learn and develop. That's the part I'm getting confused on, you make points that appear to be contradicting each other.

Mind is foggy on who we lost last year aside from Likiliki, Sao and Hiku. Who else departed? Is it a fact we didn't rate them or we just didn't see them getting an opportunity and gave them the chance to move on.

Where was Hiku going to fit in? Hurrell, Laumape, Locke, Fish, Manu - where is Hiku's place? You say we have all these gun players coming through U20's, which is true, but who do they replace? Either we lose potentially gun juniors or we get rid of potentially gun current first graders who are yet to even hit their peak because we're more worried about losing those aforementioned gun juniors.

15 players off contract in 2014 but only 6 of those are regular first graders. Do we re-sign the other 9 and then add them to the upgrades in next years U20's class. We can't stockpile talent. We have to make difficult choices and sometimes they will come back to bite us. That's the way the game is. We keep 5-6 U20's players a year, by the time that first crop hits 24 we could have 25-30+ players on our books that we've kept from U20's, they're not all going to stick around and we can't keep them.

Of our imports Lillyman, Mateo, Neilsen, Friend have all justified their place in the side.

Friend will be gone after this season, Lowrie and Lillyman are off contract and Lowrie especially is unlikely to be kept. I don't see Neilsen staying beyond his contract.

I just don't see this glut of imports who don't add any value. Townsend is the only one I would question, but when you look at our halves options throughout the club there's hardly anyone outside of Johnson who looks like they could have a long successful career in the halves.

 

[Far Away Fan]

I agree with all that you're saying, OMG, and most of yours too, Sup. And Apus. Just when all is coming good, very very good, with the carefully-crafted player development model, there is a major shift in emphasis to importing players which can only be at the expense of player development.

 

[OMG]

You're talking about a lack of depth and not relying on U20's and then complain about imports in the same paragraph who were largely brought here for depth. Then you say these imports will hinder development, but went on to talk about how very young our team was and again how we shouldn't need to rely on U20's. Looking at our imports most of them are experienced hard workers, which I would consider essential for helping younger players learn and develop. That's the part I'm getting confused on, you make points that appear to be contradicting each other.

Mind is foggy on who we lost last year aside from Likiliki, Sao and Hiku. Who else departed? Is it a fact we didn't rate them or we just didn't see them getting an opportunity and gave them the chance to move on.

Where was Hiku going to fit in? Hurrell, Laumape, Locke, Fish, Manu - where is Hiku's place? You say we have all these gun players coming through U20's, which is true, but who do they replace? Either we lose potentially gun juniors or we get rid of potentially gun current first graders who are yet to even hit their peak because we're more worried about losing those aforementioned gun juniors.

15 players off contract in 2014 but only 6 of those are regular first graders. Do we re-sign the other 9 and then add them to the upgrades in next years U20's class. We can't stockpile talent. We have to make difficult choices and sometimes they will come back to bite us. That's the way the game is. We keep 5-6 U20's players a year, by the time that first crop hits 24 we could have 25-30+ players on our books that we've kept from U20's, they're not all going to stick around and we can't keep them.

Of our imports Lillyman, Mateo, Neilsen, Friend have all justified their place in the side.

Friend will be gone after this season, Lowrie and Lillyman are off contract and Lowrie especially is unlikely to be kept. I don't see Neilsen staying beyond his contract.

I just don't see this glut of imports who don't add any value. Townsend is the only one I would question, but when you look at our halves options throughout the club there's hardly anyone outside of Johnson who looks like they could have a long successful career in the halves.

The Hiku issue is more about player identification than who we should retain and Ngani could of had another season in the 20s and Hiku can play anywhere in the backline, he is a big lad too. Look who was re-signed last year, Hiku on BTs wing, Hiku in the centres over Floss, Hiku in the Vulcans over plenty that have played there this season, plenty of room for him to develop.
No we can't stock pile talent, but the identification process at the warriors is flawed IMO. We are bringing in players we don't need apart from Townsend, but I have always seen Locke as the man to take that position one day, not quite yet but soon, we will still have a shortage of depth in the halves and particularly hooker. We know how that goes when we haven't got quality cover and Havili isn't quality.
I do have issues with playing Mutts in the front and a quality senior Prop would have been excellent, but I like the looks of Gubb and Matangi and James Taylor has high class written all over him.
Mutts is one of the top props but could be the most destructive 2nd rower in the game, a power game far better than Pritchard,Wiliams,Taylor,Merrin, an attacking force and one of the most powerful hitters there is, he is more than just shoulder charges..

Quality signings proven NRL players and more importantly Senior players which we were missing, it is the others that have me scratching my head and are going to be responsible for a player exodus like we haven't seen yet. Not this season but in the following years, due to salary cap spending like was seen at the Panthers and the Eels, how the fuck did they only have $150k for Folau??

 

[fizurg]

Talent is damn hard to predict. The classic example around here was that Maloney wasn't wanted by the storm. We have a wealth of young talent coming through the club and a by product of that is that we will sometimes get it wrong. We just cant keep them all. This is a good thing really as it shows shows our depth of talented young players.
Personally I think our team has done well out of the situation. How many past under 20's players would you trade Johnson, Locke or Matalino for?

 

[OMG]

Talent is damn hard to predict. The classic example around here was that Maloney wasn't wanted by the storm. We have a wealth of young talent coming through the club and a by product of that is that we will sometimes get it wrong. We just cant keep them all. This is a good thing really as it shows shows our depth of talented young players.
Personally I think our team has done well out of the situation. How many past under 20's players would you trade Johnson, Locke or Matalino for?

You know the answer to that, we can't keep any if we keep on buying in so many imports, there are too many good ones at the moment, but over the years I would have kept, Ah Mau,John,Feki,Ioane,Hiku Sao,Mead, maybe the Likilikis, not sure about them though..Palavi is a keeper but is a hard one to keep, never really seen much in either Lousi apart from being big,
This year Hikutai,Bhana, and Taylor but he may have one more season unsure how old he is..I always liked Seb but he should be offloaded now, same goes for Taukeiaho,Flossy.
Vete and Papalii as mentioned are hard to get gage on at the moment...

What I look for in young players, it's all about the things they do off the ball mostly-
On attack -

are they hungry?
What is their body positioning like when they hit the line?
Do they fight to get up and play the ball fast?
Are they in position? or standing around lost and bunched up
Do they run blocks with purpose? so it looks like they are going to get the ball, or are they just going through the motions.
Are they talking? sledging is highly rateable attack and defence..
Are they putting in the effort to back up..
Offloads are over rated and can be detrimental to structure, what sort of offload is it?

Defence -
Communication is the key to any good defence-pointing is a great indication that they are talking and listening.
Do they chase hard out of marker?
Do they leave the block hole open? 2nd marker..
How much effort are they making to get back into the defensive line?
Are they shooting? or keeping the line speed tempo always advancing
Are they ball watching? holding up the line
Are the centres and backrowers too close to the PTB or are they too wide- both are examples of over compensating..
Are they in the position they should be? or caught somewhere they shouldn't be. Wingers and Full backs are very noticeable when out of position, wingers should drop on 3rd and 4th unless the ball is close by
Are they communicating? after 30 minutes..
Are they listening? after 30 minutes..
Do they chase when the chase seems pointless? very big indicator of a big Ticka..
Are the talking??
Everyone at this level can tackle to a decent degree but communication can make the worst tacklers in the team rock solid..

 

[Jordan G]

The Hiku issue is more about player identification than who we should retain and Ngani could of had another season in the 20s and Hiku can play anywhere in the backline, he is a big lad too. Look who was re-signed last year, Hiku on BTs wing, Hiku in the centres over Floss, Hiku in the Vulcans over plenty that have played there this season, plenty of room for him to develop.
No we can't stock pile talent, but the identification process at the warriors is flawed IMO. We are bringing in players we don't need apart from Townsend, but I have always seen Locke as the man to take that position one day, not quite yet but soon, we will still have a shortage of depth in the halves and particularly hooker. We know how that goes when we haven't got quality cover and Havili isn't quality.
I do have issues with playing Mutts in the front and a quality senior Prop would have been excellent, but I like the looks of Gubb and Matangi and James Taylor has high class written all over him.
Mutts is one of the top props but could be the most destructive 2nd rower in the game, a power game far better than Pritchard,Wiliams,Taylor,Merrin, an attacking force and one of the most powerful hitters there is, he is more than just shoulder charges..

Quality signings proven NRL players and more importantly Senior players which we were missing, it is the others that have me scratching my head and are going to be responsible for a player exodus like we haven't seen yet. Not this season but in the following years, due to salary cap spending like was seen at the Panthers and the Eels, how the fuck did they only have $150k for Folau??

I can see what you're saying here, but again I don't see the problem because I don't believe we have made too many signings that would fit into the "other" category.

Looking at our imports, one at a time.

Mateo - unique player, has shown how deadly he is over the last few weeks. Certainly valuable.

Lillyman - Has given his all for the club in the time he's been here and has earned his spot. I would be surprised if he stays on for much longer so I don't see him chewing up cap or blocking pathways for others.

Neilsen - We needed a quality defensive centre, and we got a quality defensive centre. Again, I see this as a short term option while guys like Hurrell/Laumape develop

Lowrie - No doubt he's on the list and I can't argue with that, but he's off contract next year and I doubt he'll be retained so I don't see him having any impact on our cap going forward.

Bukuya - I like what I see of him and am happy he signed, but I can definitely understand why people would feel he wasn't necessary. I'm happy he's on board though because at his best he's a destructive edge runner, something we've lacked too often and has directly effected our ability to suck defenses in and create space for the outside men.

For the record, I agree with you about Havili, I'm not his biggest fan, but what are our other options? Leuluai will be our first choice hooker next year with Godinet and Havili as back ups. When we have a first choice hooker it's pointless splashing big cash for another hooker so our only option is to bring in a cheap import or rely on another U20 player. I would've liked to have kept Friend one more year, but that doesn't appear like it's going to happen.

The only real signing that would put any pressure on our cap at all would be Tomkins, and there are way too many variables to that to really comment as a two year contract leaves a lot of room to maneuver either side of those two years with front and back loading contracts.

If we make 2-3 more signings after Tomkins then I might tend to agree we've gone into overkill mode, but for now I like the balance of the squad we're coming up with for 2014. I'm concerned about the possibility of losing Locke at the end of next season (especially if Tomkins doesn't stay longer) but if Locke leaves I don't believe it will be a money issue but rather a positional issue.

Lastly, on the Hiku issue, it's all well and good to say we didn't deem him worth keeping, but what if he got a better offer and simply made his own decision to leave? Manly have some aging backs and a pretty crap U20's team. The pathway there looks a little less competitive than it does here.

 

[Inruin]

OMG really? sorry mate, I can't agree. out of all those players you mention, where are thye now? how have they gone? and who would you have dropped from our current first grade/vulcans team? also, the last two/three years have been a disaster with Uncle Ivan leaving, Bluey (signing extension to Billy T, Floss) and now hopefully some consistancy with Elliott. I'm fairly ahppy with what I have seen so far and decisions made (in regards to recruitment)

 

[OMG]

I can see what you're saying here, but again I don't see the problem because I don't believe we have made too many signings that would fit into the "other" category.

Looking at our imports, one at a time.

Bukuya - I like what I see of him and am happy he signed, but I can definitely understand why people would feel he wasn't necessary. I'm happy he's on board though because at his best he's a destructive edge runner, something we've lacked too often and has directly effected our ability to suck defenses in and create space for the outside men.

For the record, I agree with you about Havili, I'm not his biggest fan, but what are our other options? Leuluai will be our first choice hooker next year with Godinet and Havili as back ups. When we have a first choice hooker it's pointless splashing big cash for another hooker so our only option is to bring in a cheap import or rely on another U20 player. I would've liked to have kept Friend one more year, but that doesn't appear like it's going to happen.

The only real signing that would put any pressure on our cap at all would be Tomkins, and there are way too many variables to that to really comment as a two year contract leaves a lot of room to maneuver either side of those two years with front and back loading contracts.

If we make 2-3 more signings after Tomkins then I might tend to agree we've gone into overkill mode, but for now I like the balance of the squad we're coming up with for 2014. I'm concerned about the possibility of losing Locke at the end of next season (especially if Tomkins doesn't stay longer) but if Locke leaves I don't believe it will be a money issue but rather a positional issue.

Lastly, on the Hiku issue, it's all well and good to say we didn't deem him worth keeping, but what if he got a better offer and simply made his own decision to leave? Manly have some aging backs and a pretty crap U20's team. The pathway there looks a little less competitive than it does here.

I like Bukuya too, I just believe we have a better one than him..

Hooker should have been priority, Godinet is a good fill in is all, but a structure killer, much better half- I have no idea why Havili isn't being shipped off, especially if you look at teams that have had running dummy halves lately, Isaac Luke isn't any more and their structure has benefited. Farrah is doing far too much running, it isn't good for structure.
Some would say Smith is too, but he just has amazing vision and picks his moments beautifully.

How can Friend not be retained he isn't on a fortune..

There is still a Pom prop to be announced allegedly.

Hiku signed on a training contract with incentives, as they all do with Manly,..DCE ring a bell, Horo..Another reason they couldn't retain Hargreaves.

 

[Sebastian]

OMG really? sorry mate, I can't agree. out of all those players you mention, where are thye now? how have they gone? and who would you have dropped from our current first grade/vulcans team? also, the last two/three years have been a disaster with Uncle Ivan leaving, Bluey (signing extension to Billy T, Floss) and now hopefully some consistancy with Elliott. I'm fairly ahppy with what I have seen so far and decisions made (in regards to recruitment)

Compared to where we were under Bluey. This club is flying. Players are coming so good we've gone from desperate recruitment mode. To having to let some of our depth go. We're overflowing with talent. But does OMG give credit to the coaching staff for actually turning around these poor performing players? No he expects psychic predictions about future players being made now. After the fact.

TL is going to move to hooker. So ME buys the best quality halves prospect he can get. After Taylor announces he's leaving. ME when the team was under performing signs a quality backrower. Jayson Bakuya. When Locke was going like a busted. Out injured every couple of weeks. Possibly injury prone. Showed poor form last year. He tries to sign a better replacement. In the shape of the best player in the ESL. How could he know Locke would come good and show glimpses of his 2011 form. It's a credit to ME he has created a possibly even better option at fullback in Fish. What a good turnaround and all things considered. What a cracking job ME has done.

 

[OMG]

Compared to where we were under Bluey. This club is flying. Players are coming so good we've gone from desperate recruitment mode. To having to let some of our depth go. We're overflowing with talent. But does OMG give credit to the coaching staff for actually turning around these poor performing players? No he expects psychic predictions about future players being made now. After the fact. TL is going to move to hooker. So ME buys the best quality prospect he can get. After Taylor announces he's leaving. ME when the team was under performing signs a quality backrower. Jayson Bakuya. When Locke was going like a busted. Out injured every couple of weeks. Possibly injury prone. Showed poor form last year. He tries to sign a better replacement. In the shape of the best player in the ESL. How could he know Locke would come good and show glimpses of his 2011 form. It's a credit to ME he has created a possibly even better option at fullback in Fish. What a good turnaround and all things considered. What a cracking job ME has done.

What you say about Locke is my point, this team has always been there it has been hiding though, even under Ivan the team we have seen a lot of the past 2 seasons was there, yes we made it to the grand final, but we also had games very similar to the past 2 seasons, thrashings and giving up good leads under pressure. If players have talent it doesn't get lost somewhere it is about finding the reasons why, not pointing fingers at 1 individual, this is a team game and it only takes one individual to let the team down, was Locke letting the team down or was he under performing. We had a very good example of someone letting the team down against the Roosters..But IMO our problems on the whole was that the team not individuals were letting the team down.
Elliot has made some very scratchy decisions that was bought to a head after the Penrith game.
Is the team performing well, yes, but there is masses of improvement in them yet.
We were going badly so Elliot bought out the cheque book, are they needed maybe, just a maybe though, there is a history of signings in every club where players have been deemed to have not bought their form with them, it's got more to do with team dynamic than indidualism.
I have been saying for a very long time that the team is there, but just needs to be played correctly, is Elliot and his staff responsible for the team turn around, partly for sure, but the meeting they had after that game was the major catalyst, not anything in particular that Elliot did himself, he was just the mediator from what has been alleged.
Injuries do take time, if we were going to say that players are injury prone there is no better example than Brent Tate-maybe he should have been flicked off to England to huh..
We don't know what Elliot has created for next year, saying it will be a better team is just a hash pipe dream and nothing more..Fish has taken his share of ridicule around here, try and find a post of me doing that, he has always had the talent it is about finding out why, he hasn't been able to replicate his first game at Fullback-Talent doesn't just disappear, there are far too many factors, some not of his own making..

 

[Inruin]

From the Lurker:

https://www.sportal.com.au/league-news-display/ask-the-lurkerround-16-241250

"Q: (@CAPhoto10) Any truth two big name Warriors testing Sydney market?
The Warriors need to shed some players to accommodate for Sam Tomkins so they will lose a few - yet to be decided who."

Why on earth would we NEED to shed players, given the amount we're supposed to be under the cap (combined with the increase in cap)?

How much are we paying Tomkins? Well, after what Elliott said about it being nowhere near the amounts bandied about in the papers, for a player without NRL experience, then it can't be that much...

Confusing.

if we have to shed players from our current first grade squad I will be surprised and disappointed. If not and we get Tomkins I will be extremely happy.[DOUBLEPOST=1372319215][/DOUBLEPOST]

What you say about Locke is my point, this team has always been there it has been hiding though, even under Ivan the team we have seen a lot of the past 2 seasons was there, yes we made it to the grand final, but we also had games very similar to the past 2 seasons, thrashings and giving up good leads under pressure. If players have talent it doesn't get lost somewhere it is about finding the reasons why, not pointing fingers at 1 individual, this is a team game and it only takes one individual to let the team down, was Locke letting the team down or was he under performing. We had a very good example of someone letting the team down against the Roosters..But IMO our problems on the whole was that the team not individuals were letting the team down.
Elliot has made some very scratchy decisions that was bought to a head after the Penrith game.
Is the team performing well, yes, but there is masses of improvement in them yet.
We were going badly so Elliot bought out the cheque book, are they needed maybe, just a maybe though, there is a history of signings in every club where players have been deemed to have not bought their form with them, it's got more to do with team dynamic than indidualism.
I have been saying for a very long time that the team is there, but just needs to be played correctly, is Elliot and his staff responsible for the team turn around, partly for sure, but the meeting they had after that game was the major catalyst, not anything in particular that Elliot did himself, he was just the mediator from what has been alleged.
Injuries do take time, if we were going to say that players are injury prone there is no better example than Brent Tate-maybe he should have been flicked off to England to huh..
We don't know what Elliot has created for next year, saying it will be a better team is just a hash pipe dream and nothing more..Fish has taken his share of ridicule around here, try and find a post of me doing that, he has always had the talent it is about finding out why, he hasn't been able to replicate his first game at Fullback-Talent doesn't just disappear, there are far too many factors, some not of his own making..

Fair enough I guess? But the inconsistancy and underperforming has been there for a number of years now and under a number of coaches with a number of players coming and going. I am more inclined to believe in the 'its in the DNA' argument. So, should we continue waiting and waiting to try and unlock the secret to the players performance? Or do we change it up and try and create an enviroment where there is pressure on to perform and retain your place? I'm leaning towards the latter by quite a way.