General STANDING AROUND

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
Has anyone else noticed something I`ve been watching the Warriors defense doing all season long? That`s standing back like a bunch of statues letting the opponent`s offense run right through them... cost us a few tries tonight and the game, as usual. If you want to stop the other team from scoring, you GOT to MOVE YOUR BUTTS, Warriors!!
 

mosh_old

Guest
Yes, I talked to Ivan Cleary about it during the pre-season and wanted to know if being at the Roosters setup in 2003 if we were going to bring the 2002 Roosters rushing defence, but he thought I was talking a whole lotta rubbish apparently
 

2big2strong_old

Guest
I actually found the transcript to that discussion Mosh.


"...no no no mosh, that's proposterous! why would we update our game with the dominant style of up and in defence, when we can do what the broncos won the 1998 premiership with, it's a catchy trend i think they call it "slideing defence" and to answer your question on ball skills at training, are you on drugs?? ball skills, at training? theres a time and a place for everything and thats not it. we encourage our players to go and get into that new craze 'medicine ball' it's apparently a huge hit in europe......"
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
2black2strong said:
I actually found the transcript to that discussion Mosh.


"...no no no mosh, that's proposterous! why would we update our game with the dominant style of up and in defence, when we can do what the broncos won the 1998 premiership with, it's a catchy trend i think they call it "slideing defence" and to answer your question on ball skills at training, are you on drugs?? ball skills, at training? theres a time and a place for everything and thats not it. we encourage our players to go and get into that new craze 'medicine ball' it's apparently a huge hit in europe......"

HA HA HA HA HA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
There's three flaws with it:-

1. You need to be incredibly fit to play it. We're good, but its questionable whether we're that fit.
2. You need to keep moving forward as a line, otherwise you create holes with angled runners on the fringe. Effectively, you're only as good as your weakest link.
3. You're very vulnerable to kicks in behind the line early, which is particularly dangerous down Manu's flank, he's not the quickest to turn.

It goes one of two ways, you can gain some dominance, or you could bounce off tackles, and create gaps left right and centre. One guy injured in the line and needing attention in back play also creates enormous problems, due to the gaps the speed of the line can create.

I think its more important to have good lateral footwork and good technique in defence, move up at a consistent but not unfavourable pace, make sure you're lining up your opponent well, communicate well to watch for alternative runners, and drive in under the ball with one man around the hips also, make sure the opponent does not get to his chest when he gets to the ground, and make sure you don't lose balance too much to lose the ability to get back to marker.
 

JonB_old

Guest
Wouldn't it be possible to play differnt types of defence then Iafeta? start the game at a high tempo then chane it 20 minutes into the game?
Im sure Wiki would love to be a defencive captain or some sort of role like that.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
JonB said:
Wouldn't it be possible to play differnt types of defence then Iafeta? start the game at a high tempo then chane it 20 minutes into the game?
Im sure Wiki would love to be a defencive captain or some sort of role like that.

I've never coached league, I've coached some other sports and in my book the key to most sport defences, be it football, or cricket, is footwork. And added to a combination defence like a team unit in league, communication. If you have good communication and leadership, you probably could adjust defensive strategies depending on the situation. Again though, that might be difficult to coach and provide too much confusion to younger players especially.

From what I've seen at games, I wouldn't mind employing a very compressed D that moves forward quickly when the opposition is inside their own 30 metre zone to cut down the ruck speed and the actual go forward, provided the wingers and fullback are weary of the chip kick and even the deep 40/20 attempt, from there to your own 20 a sliding D, and then in your own 20 an up and in style of D. From what I've seen, sliding D is a cautious and fairly safe defensive style, but it allows too much latitude and the ability to poke your nose through the line as opposed to the gang tackling, and when you're dealing with it from 10 metres out thats probably not a good thing. The key in footy I think though is communication, and committment to the plan - if you go the Roosters style of gang warfare up and in, if one player starts to slide, or comes up too quick, or doesn't come up hard enough, it creates opportunities either on the fringes or in behind the ruck.
 

Sinbad_old

Guest
could always revert to the old flying V formation that I used to play back in the old dark ages of the 70s !

That seemed to work......Ha !
 

Skinner_old

Guest
Iafeta said:
JonB said:
Wouldn't it be possible to play differnt types of defence then Iafeta? start the game at a high tempo then chane it 20 minutes into the game?
Im sure Wiki would love to be a defencive captain or some sort of role like that.

I've never coached league, I've coached some other sports and in my book the key to most sport defences, be it football, or cricket, is footwork. And added to a combination defence like a team unit in league, communication. If you have good communication and leadership, you probably could adjust defensive strategies depending on the situation. Again though, that might be difficult to coach and provide too much confusion to younger players especially.

From what I've seen at games, I wouldn't mind employing a very compressed D that moves forward quickly when the opposition is inside their own 30 metre zone to cut down the ruck speed and the actual go forward, provided the wingers and fullback are weary of the chip kick and even the deep 40/20 attempt, from there to your own 20 a sliding D, and then in your own 20 an up and in style of D. From what I've seen, sliding D is a cautious and fairly safe defensive style, but it allows too much latitude and the ability to poke your nose through the line as opposed to the gang tackling, and when you're dealing with it from 10 metres out thats probably not a good thing. The key in footy I think though is communication, and committment to the plan - if you go the Roosters style of gang warfare up and in, if one player starts to slide, or comes up too quick, or doesn't come up hard enough, it creates opportunities either on the fringes or in behind the ruck.

The problem with playing a compressed defence, is that if the opposition
has speedsters in the outside backs, they will simply run around you and
score tries. The vast majority of teams cannot slide across fast enough
to effect a defence.

I'm a fan for the umbrella style...you have it all covered then.

Cheers
Skinner
 

JonB_old

Guest
I have personal experience with the umbrella defence, it works very well when it is exectued properly, higher risk than drift defence, especaily if the cover guy doesn't commit.

And Amerkiwi it fits in withg your F defence plan aswell, it incourages bigger hits.

The one thing I think you missed in your keys of defence, Iafeta I think is trust. when you are playing drift D it is hard to go against instinct and not go for the guy with the ball you have to trust the guy inside you to make the tackle.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
Thanks for explaining that, Jon... apart from the standing around thing I noticed, another major thing they need to improve on IS harder hitting and tackling. Most of the time they`re doing more wrestling with the ball carrier than real tackling. Harder hits and tackling wear an offense down and also make them respect the defense a lot more.
 

Iafeta_old

Guest
Skinner,

The problem I foresee with the Warriors playing an umbrella defence is that it opens up problems in behind our wingers - notably Manu Vatuvei who is not a quick turner. If he's up near the line of where the kick and the runner are coming from, and the kick settles in goal, he's a sitting duck.

In terms of the compressed D allowing men to get around you - its very true. I think you play it horses for courses though in some respects. I say this because to get around the edges of the defensive line, you have to get the ball there. For example, against Canberra, or Melbourne, or similar teams who don't play too many attacking 'spread' plays, and whom really don't have someone of the Johns/Fittler ilk who can throw a long, quick cut out ball accurately, I think it couldn't be overly exposed. I think against a Johns/Fittler type player, you'd have to think twice about employing it because they have the ball skills/passing skills to make a mockery of it. Against a team who plays a direct style, almost like the Warriors themselves, it'd limit the metres up the middle, limit the dominance at ruck time as you could get more into the tackle, and to create options they'd have to do something thats not in their nature and is therefore possible to create errors and cheap turnovers.

JonB, dead right - no defence in the world, sliding, umbrella, compressed, up and in, will ever work without trust, and just as importantly, communication. Time and time again down our fringes that has sadly been shown up, it used to regularly horrifically be shown up down Clinton Toopi and Francis Meli's side. I notice it is frequently shown up when Jerome Ropati plays centre, I note he seems a bit flat footed in lateral defence which causes openings and wingers having to make snap, and sometimes, wrong decisions.

Defence - don't you just love it!
 

JonB_old

Guest
I remember when I was a young lad that my father telling me that defence should be practised as much as attack as it is half the game.

I was actualy thinking would it be possible to play a slidding defence down the side of manu's wing and an umbrella down Misi wing?is that possible to accomplish, I think that would prevent attacking halves getting into a rythme and suit our footy players....
 

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