General Sick Of Silver Lining Talk

[Richie]

Hey all,

I haven't been around in a while (busy, busy, busy), but I've been on the same roller coaster as every other Warriors fan this year and now that our first season with Elliot in charge is about to end (though I'm hoping for a stay of execution courtesy of a final round miracle, like the rest of you), we begin to hear our coach's overall interpretation of our team's season and where he thinks we went well or poorly. Much of it is familiar territory - "If only we'd one a couple of the close ones" "If only we'd started the season a little better" "Oh, the travel. Won't somebody think of the Travel!". A lot of this is standard stuff, and is true enough, as far as it goes. However, I've also started to notice that Elliot (and now some of the players) are frequently adopting "the glass is half full" mentality. I refer, most recently, to the interview with Elliot where he pointlessly felt the need to state that we came 4th... over the back half of the season. It seems he feels the need to tell the fans that when our team is in game mode, we can succeed in the NRL. Well... DUH!!! Is there a single Warriors fan who doesn't already think this? Personally, and I don't think I'm alone here, I'd rather hear some intelligent insight on why we started so poorly, why our team's application and execution fluctuated so much this season (I know it wasn't just the Warriors, but we're talking about our team, not the rest), why the persistent weaknesses in our game weren't rectified (compressed defence, or wingers just not trusting inside defenders, and then being too slow to adjust out wide, consistently sloppy ruck and marker defence, or our frequent inability to play for repeat sets and or come up with other last play options that put pressure on the defence on the last). I'm not looking to put the boot in. I know these things sorts of problems are faced by all teams, and at times we did fix some of these up. I also know that we did a lot of good things this year (our scramble defence, general completion rates, etc.) My point is that I want our coach to offer, if he is capable, intelligent analysis of our team and the season that it has had... not repeat tired truisms and blow smoke up my arse. Hearing players like Sam Rapira say that, if we get knocked out this weekend that "at least we can say we finished on a high", when only 6 weeks ago we had everything to play for and still came up with 3 consecutive loses indicates to me that this kind of grasping at silver linings mentality is getting out of hand.

I guess that what I'm essentially getting at is that if Elliot and our players can show that they've capable of accurately and honestly identifying and describing the issues we've had this year, then it also demonstrates that they're capable of addressing those issues. The players job is to play, but the coaches job is to ensure that they are prepared to play and capable of executing a winning brand of footy. It's also to explain to the fans where things have gone wrong and what he intends to do to fix it. It is NOT to offer meaningless platitudes. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Go the Warriors (in all grades) for the rest of the season.

*Apologies if this has been covered in another thread.

 

[Sup42]

First up excellent post man , well worth the read right through ( ow long did that take to compose ? lol )

Can't disagree with any of it. If we just look at the issue of the way Elliot talks to the media / fans :
Yes he has a silver tongue.
Most will point out that's easier to digest than Blueys style , but as you allude to after a time it becomes another sales pitch hyperbole and echoing rhetoric in hollow place.

That won't change , it's Elliot through and through , i think it's the sports psychology you are hearing from the players too.

That's how pretty much most successful Kiwi Athletes talk as well , Val Adams I remember when she was not going so well rattled of the same nonsense....it's a self hypnosis / cognitive thinking thing , believe it....make it happen....don't dwell on what you can't change or negative thinking period.
Bottom line is it works.
As for the tactical stuff , again Elliots been better than Bluey excuse the silver lining comparison but it's true.
The shit kicker , the answer to the meaning of life , the answer to whether Elliot has changed the Warriors comes next year and there is no silver lining excuse if it doesn't come to fruition.

1) Improvements ( completions / scrambling D / individual players e.g Hurrell ) must be maintained.

You can't realistically expect Elliot to take the worst team in the history of the Warriors , the most potentially talented with the worst attitudes ( smiling dicks after Penrith ffs ) and change all their bad habits in one season. But if they relapse on completions and talking on D then Elliots the wrong man.
If he keeps that new baseline and adds Some size to the pack and go forward , support play and better kick chase , we're in the eight. If he adds disciplined grind you down fifth tackle options we are in the top four.

2 ) Elliot will have the depth to create pressure and competition for spots in the squad , he must use it , Townsend / Locke / Tomkins / Leuluai / Freind / Johnson or any other spine player who is showing a poor / weak / or rebellious mind set......must be replaced. The replacement must be given a fair crack / screw reputations.


That's what will be a the measure of Elliot next season imo . thereafter I couldn't give a stuff what he says in the media conferences when we are winning.

Rant Time : approx ten minutes

 

[edd]

However, I've also started to notice that Elliot (and now some of the players) are frequently adopting "the glass is half full" mentality.

They've also adopted a habit of winning as well.. Maybe there's a direct correlation between looking at the bright side and collecting championship points? 22 points in 13 rounds aint bad by any teams standards in 2013...

I think less ramming their failures down the boys throats and more encouragement to do better is the way to the GF... But feel free to rip into the coach... Ha Ha...

 

[Hitman82]

You asked for rants? Rants you shall receive...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/league/news/article.cfm?c_id=79&objectid=11120207

This year will go down as a season of missed opportunities for the Warriors.

I went into the season hugely optimistic of their chances of making the top four because of the roster they had and the reality is they will probably miss out on the top eight.

That's disappointing and shows they have underperformed. What increases that disappointment is the fact we have seen what this side is capable of. They can beat the best sides in the competition but, equally, get beaten by the worst.

The difference between their best and worst performances needs to reduce because that is how teams win premierships. There's no point being good one week and ordinary the next.

Consistency has been a problem for the Warriors throughout their history and the biggest issue seems to be attitude and belief.

I'm all for what coach Matt Elliott is trying to do in terms of work ethic and giving your best every week but I find it difficult to believe players struggle for motivation.

Surely pride in the jersey and your own performance should be enough, let alone a goal to play in the finals. The players seemed to work so hard in the off-season, perhaps the hardest they have ever done, but they didn't bring the right mindset often enough to complement the physical preparation.

How, for instance, did they allow a team like Penrith, who had humiliated them earlier in the season, to come back from 12-0 down and beat them on their home ground? It should never happen.

The way their season panned out highlighted to me the need for the Warriors to start a campaign well. It's something they have struggled with for some time but it's almost imperative if they want to be a top-four side.

Melbourne have to do this every year because they are hit so hard by Origin call-ups and this desperation to start well puts them in a good place from the outset.

The Warriors need to adopt a similar mindset and it's critical everyone is on the same page.

It's clear it took a while for everyone to adjust to a new coaching staff, new style and new players. They will all be better for it next season and they have a side capable of doing well in this competition.

Thomas Leuluai was a shining light for me, but he needs more support from key individuals.

Shaun Johnson is still learning the game and is building slowly and it will take time for him to grow into the player he is capable of being. Fullback Kevin Locke has all the tools but, for him, it's more about attitude to fulfil that talent.

If Johnson and Locke can become more consistent, they have the potential to take this team to another level and when they fire it reminds me of what Johnathan Thurston and Matt Bowen do at the Cowboys. It's about delivering that every week, not occasionally.

I'm optimistic again about the Warriors' chances next season and a top-four spot has to be the goal. New recruit Jayson Bukuya will add a direct running style but the team will miss Elijah Taylor immensely.

A hard-working, ball-playing back-rower ticks all the boxes and the Warriors could have built a side around him.

Letting Penrith pick him up is another missed opportunity. Unfortunately, there have been too many of those.

 

[edd]

Richie Barnett wan'ts to build a team around Elijah Taylor as if he was our ticket to the GF? Taylors a good player to be sure, but he's no SBW or GI. I think we can all agree on that surely....

Maybe the Warriors roller-coster ride is in part because of our players getting way over-hyped, as individuals, and then slammed back down to earth when they fail to measure up.

Or is that just something they need to learn to handle as pros? Become robots impervious to the hatred of the fans?

 

[Gizzyfan]

Elliott is a good communicator and looking from his point of view he has to accentuate the positive. I think the following needs to be considered.
1. Elliott has inherited a basket case of a club and the damage done over a season (maybe longer, who knows) will take longer to fix. Structures over three teams are not acheived overnight.
2. We are not privy to what is happening away from the public view. I suspect a lot more harder conversations happen behind closed doors.
3. Recruitment has obviously been difficult while the team has been crap. Bukuyu, Townsend and maybe Tomkins adds to the team, that is the squad we have to use in 2014. With injured players also back, particularly Fisiahi, Henry, Louisi's and Packer. Also players Like Locke getting to rehabiltate. Other young blokes will put their hands up like Fusitua, Bhana Faitala-Marriner, (is he related to the King Country rugby family, if he is he will be hard)
4. Sport is supposed to be a positive experience, what is wrong with being positive.

 

[gREVUS]

Richie go back 6 months and look at the team then stop and look at them now and tell me you don't see a difference.

6 Months ago - the warriors, couldn't recruit players, had finally picked up a coach that no one else wanted and who had never beaten the storm in a single game. Morale was in the toilet, most people were talking about who would be next to jump ship. Manu played 6 mins(I think) and went down injured in the first game of the season. They looked, talked and acted like a train wreck.

Now look at them....

Seriously there are very few teams and coaches who click in that first year to the point where they make the 8 without massive recruiting drives. The majority of posters on this forum all picked the warriors not to make the 8 for the finals before the first ball was even punted. Don't let your disappointment in the three games lost at the end of the season blind you to all the good things that have been done during the whole of the season. And if that don't convince you to smile think about this - the warriors have become a team that plays for each other again, in the space of 1 year. After Blueys involvement I thought we would see the loss of half the team, ala the sharks, the tigers, the eels etc etc before this would happen. Glass half full, glass half empty, it don't matter at the end of 2012 I wondered if we still had a glass!

 

[Buck777]

Im beginning to believe that ME could be the oracle. And believe you me, I did not think that at the beginning of the season
I didn't think ropati had another good game in him either, but that's another thread.

 

[edd]

Im beginning to believe that ME could be the oracle. And believe you me, I did not think that at the beginning of the season
I didn't think ropati had another good game in him either, but that's another thread.

ME has loads of experience coaching, and is an unusual character, which might just make him the perfect fit for our Warrior Nation... Time will tell...

 

[Tim burgess]

Issue I have with Elliott talk is he has people believing that second best is acceptable. Unfortunately it's anther season in his coaching record where he has not made top eight.

All the polish talk will have to be backed up with wins with or without Tompkins, but also improv on this year.

I can definately see tigers, broncos and even the dragons rebounding next season so the warriors better have significant room for improvement.

 

[wallacenz]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11120791

this article is the truth of it

There is considerable optimism the Warriors will be better next season, given what they have achieved in the second half of this year, but any optimism needs to be greeted with caution because they have rarely met expectations - they were 14th in 2009 a year after falling one game short of the grand final and 14th again in 2012 after playing in the previous grand final.

 

[gREVUS]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11120791

this article is the truth of it

hmm so based on this we better not play in the GF this year or next year were FUCKED

 

[wallacenz]

hmm so based on this we better not play in the GF this year or next year were FUCKED

no we didnt play a GF in 2008.

its saying when the publics expectations are up, like after the 2008 and 2011 seasons, the warriors produce their worst

 

[Richie]

I think some people may have mistaken the purpose of my post. It isn't to put Elliot or the team down. Elliot seems like a tops bloke and nobody's fool, though I admit that his results at Penrith (more so than Canberra) do not fill me with great hope. Another club with a strong junior base and strong financial situation (not to mention a strong Polynesian player/fan base). The results there were not flash, no matter how you cut it. I guess part of what makes me critical of his "silver lining" talk now is that I've heard it from him before. That being said, the Warriors ARE a different club (despite the similarities) and he clearly deserves a couple more years to show what he has to offer. I honestly hope that he (and the players, of course) deliver, and that in 3 years from now were all singing his and the team's deserved praises. However, experience (i.e. being around a long time) doesn't automatically count as a plus, does it? There are probably stacks of administrators who've been (cycled) around for an age, without having achieved a great deal. I don't rate survival nearly as high as I rate success, though I understand that you need the former to achieve the latter. A lack of options and competition can also lead to longevity, just sayin'.

I also understand that there can be morale/recruitment (players), membership/merchandise (fans) and self-preservation (board) advantages to be gained from focusing largely on the positives in the media. Maybe it is a time and place thing, with more critical and constructive talk going on in other forums. I sincerely hope so, and while I'd love to be privy to those discussions, I will cop being in the dark IF the results prove that the hard/smart work has been done by those in charge. On the recruitment front, we seem to be picking up some handy talent, but we already have plenty of that. I think we need more leadership in the team, more hard heads, 'bust your gut' style players. Skill and speed are always handy, but if you don't have your Campion/Wiki/Luck type leaders in the team, all the flash bang in the world ain't going to help. Someone mentioned Leuluai, and I agree that he's a hard headed fierce competitor and has proven his value to the team. The jury is still out on Nielson, imo. But we have a tendency to let those terriers like thae Browns and Taylors go, which concerns me.

The sole purpose of the post (besides reconnecting with my Warriors brothers and sisters) was to question whether these sorts of silver lining comments indicate a lack of awareness of, and motivation to fix, the problems that have contributed to us being in the situation that we're in now. Saying "well, if you look at where we were 6 months ago" only reinforces my concern. Why ask that question, if not to simply make ourselves feel better about our current circumstances? We might as well say, "well, if we take out all those games we didn't win or perform well in, we've actually had the perfect season. Sweet!!!" Why not go back 6 months further and say, we had a clean slate, this is what went wrong, this is what went right, and here's what we're going to do to go through the mother$%^*$#@ roof! I don't know about everyone else, but THAT'S what I'm looking for from the coach of my team. Not a "she'll be right, no worries mate" pat on the shoulder.

The reason I'm saying that the coach and players shouldn't be running out the silver lining quote book isn't so that we can all be bummed together, or be negative towards our team. It's only for the simple reason that problems don't magically fix themselves. Acknowledging a problem is the first step towards fixing it. I want to know that my coach knows what needs to be fixed, isn't scared to fess up and is damn well going to make sure that what needs to be done get done. That's it. End of story. I don't think that's asking too much. Hopefully, sometime in the off-season, we get something to this effect. That'll shut me up... till this time NEXT season.

(Hey, Sup42. It takes me about 10 mins to put one of these spiels together.)

 

[BA-AD Luck]

Have nothing to add, but Coach Elliot has turned this joke of a club pre 2013, into a club of possibly maybe's. He has to earn that credit. Coach Blue lost that credibility. We are on the right path IMHO and we are looking good to enjoy a better season in 2014, which will give us a finals experience. Happy with coach, happy with club, probably far too happy!

 

[edd]

I still think 10 wins from 14 rounds is enough for the boys to be a little happy with themselves...[DOUBLEPOST=1378460597][/DOUBLEPOST]

no we didnt play a GF in 2008.

its saying when the publics expectations are up, like after the 2008 and 2011 seasons, the warriors produce their worst

That's just tall poppy syndrome doing that... We expect them to completely dominate the comp, and cut them to shreds whenever they don't... A little unrealistic for any team other than the ABs....

 

[gREVUS]

. Saying "well, if you look at where we were 6 months ago" only reinforces my concern. Why ask that question, if not to simply make ourselves feel better about our current circumstances? We might as well say, "well, if we take out all those games we didn't win or perform well in, we've actually had the perfect season. Sweet!!!" Why not go back 6 months further and say, we had a clean slate, this is what went wrong, this is what went right, and here's what we're going to do to go through the mother$%^*$#@ roof! I don't know about everyone else, but THAT'S what I'm looking for from the coach of my team. Not a "she'll be right, no worries mate" pat on the shoulder.

But here is my point - ur focusing only on one side of the coin - during this season they have looked at whats going wrong and corrected it. I base the 'corrected it' on the results in the last half of the season. If they were to do as you say and go back and redo what they have already done, then there is a very real possibility of undoing all the good by just focusing on the negatives. The team is not a static thing, they change over the whole sometimes positive/some times not but overall if compared to the start of the season the improvement is obvious. Lets keep working on improving from where we are today, not trying to improve from where we were 6 months ago.

 

[Richie]

I hear you, gREVUS. but you can't improve on something that you aren't focused on. I've already agreed that we have fixed some stuff and done other stuff well in the back half of the year. I dare say that Elliot and the boys made those gains BECAUSE they where being smacked in the face by all the stuff that was going horribly wrong. My point is that looking at the back half of the year (which has obviously been fairly successful) isn't likely to induce the same motivation to work hard to fix all the things that still aren't right. Besides, the "well, if we look at it from this angle, things are pretty good" attitude can lead (more so than being constantly and critically self-evaluating) to complacency and steps backwards.

 

[wallacenz]

I still think 10 wins from 14 rounds is enough for the boys to be a little happy with themselves...[DOUBLEPOST=1378460597][/DOUBLEPOST]
That's just tall poppy syndrome doing that... We expect them to completely dominate the comp, and cut them to shreds whenever they don't... A little unrealistic for any team other than the ABs....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

a social phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers

i dont think losing when people expect you to win, based on previous performances, qualifies as tall poppy syndrome.. thats more a poppy dying on its own

 

[rugged]

I still think 10 wins from 14 rounds is enough for the boys to be a little happy with themselves...

If we don't make the 8 it will be because we weren't good enough... plain and simple.

I have heard fans try and use various excuses to explain it away. The two worst are

1) The draw - We had to play all the top four teams twice
Those using this argument neatly forget that we got the advantage of playing Brisbane twice during origin period. That we got smashed by the Panthers and Paramatta.

2) The refs are out to get us
Never mind that we don't have the worst record for penalties for vs penalites against. Don't let those facts stop you from putting on the tin hat and crying conspiracy

These two excuses annoy me so much because they both involve things that are outside the clubs control. I think blaming failure on external facts rather than the things we can control is a terrible thing to do. If the team start blaming their failure on such things then you have just set up a culture of failure

While I agree their are some good signs for next year I will not declare this season a successful one.

Of course this post will be edited when the knights lose and we go on to win the grand final...