General SAME OLD STORY!!! Will peoples thoughts change?

STRIDER_old

Guest
I Said for the last 2 seasons and I will repeat again, We just cant win Games with our ineffective Backrow. Anderson, Guttenbeil, Luck, Koopu dont have any dynamic ability at all!!!!!!!!

Sure they can compete just like the Titanic could travel but in the end the titanic sunk just like the Warriors continuely in Games.

Get rid of

Webb
Byrne
Ropati
Martin
Guttenbeil
Luck
Koopu

and swap some players postions and bring in some dynamic talent Rookie or not and try to blast oppostiobn sides open
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
Wrong! The raw talent`s there, it`s the coaching that needs the work. They should be out on the practice field tomorrow afternoon, right after tonight`s film clips have been reviewed. That way, they can all watch how 1/2 the team stood around watching one player trying to score all night long.
 

mattyj_old

Guest
No you are wrong. The coaching is the problem? Bullsh@t

The same old argument time after time when someone cant bare to open his eyes and realize the players are accountable.

I'd add Natan Fein to your list Strider, he has played bloody Origin football yet when he gets immaculate ball and go forward from some of the best meter eaters in the game in Price and Wiki he freakin butchers it. Then a player who has a total of 2 NRL games off the bench under his belt comes on, he looks like a bloody saviour compared to him.
 

raypower_old

Guest
I agree with you in part strider however, if we do that who should we replace them with?

Sure our 2nd row are similar shaped players with similar games, however, what are our options in the 2nd row? Lauaki, Tuimave and then? Where should we get our so called rookie talent from as well? It seems as though our scouting is slow to act on, implement and secure any emerging talent.

Also, what's wrong with Webb and Byrne? Sure Webb didn't have the best of games tonight, but he's reliable, is an optional kicker and goal kicker and Byrne was our top try scorer last year and what I saw today seems to say he's improved other aspects of his game as well.

Martin can go as far as I'm concerned, I'm sick of looking at his face....
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
Sorry, Matty, but effective coaching MAKES players accountable for the way they execute on the field. A lack of strong coaching ALLOWS players to be unaccountable for their actions, which we saw plenty of tonight.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
I don't agree with your thinking Strider. You can just rack players off just because you don't think they are good enough. I can see they are a highly capable team with alot still to prove. They just need to adapt a game plan suitable to accoomodate their players.
I think Warriors fans have spent far too long being shallow and thinking we need some big impact player every time. Right now we don't have that and while some see it as a bad thing (which can or can't be true) but we just have to find alternative. Big guys don't do it for you ever single time and I think some fans have this one mind that is all you need. It's not the missing link. You can't just say
"Oh we are missing impact" or "so and so players aren't pulling their weight" and that's why we lose games. Don't just single one thing out because alot of the time that isn't the case.

Start looking at the bigger picture, they aren't playing with the real execution and flair that they are well capable of, things aren't coming off for them at the moment.
 

Skinny_Ravs82

Guest
STRIDER said:
I Said for the last 2 seasons and I will repeat again, We just cant win Games with our ineffective Backrow. Anderson, Guttenbeil, Luck, Koopu dont have any dynamic ability at all!!!!!!!!

Sure they can compete just like the Titanic could travel but in the end the titanic sunk just like the Warriors continuely in Games.

Get rid of

Webb
Byrne
Ropati
Martin
Guttenbeil
Luck
Koopu

and swap some players postions and bring in some dynamic talent Rookie or not and try to blast oppostiobn sides open

You can't just "blast" the opposition with a whole bunch of fresh faces. It doesn't work that way
You are trying to look for a quick fix and quite frankly that 'quick fix' doesn't exisit.

Getting rid of players also doesn't fix problems. I really think you've got to start using some sense around what you are saying instead of just taking out your frustration and talking blindly.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
You`re right, Skinny... there`s enough raw talent there, and trading all the current players for new ones isn`t the answer. I also agree with you when you say they aren`t playing with the execution and flair they`re capable of, as well. Those are exactly the things they most need to develop at the moment, and that`s where intensive training and strong coaching techniques play an invaluable role.
 

raypower_old

Guest
Well said Skinny Ravs.

I really think we missed a game breaker tonight though which is what Sione gives us when he's not suspended. When our little guys linked up as well it was beautiful to watch but I can only remember seeing it once, when Rovelli drifted across and then put Fien into the gap, why not work on that sort of thing as opposed to the continual grind.

Sure we need to work on the basics first but we're playing "sensible" football for 75 minutes and then realising we need some magic when we're 6 or 8 behind with not enough time on the clock. I really think we need something more dynamic and I hope we see more of Rovelli soon.
 

STRIDER_old

Guest
Bullsh*t Skinny Ravs, Yourve been suckered!!! Dynamic players win Games. Look at West Tigers last season, They werent big but had some very dynamic players. Webb, Byrne are not dynamic, infact they are very average players!!!!

Average players wont win you sh*t

I reckon if your gonna take a attitude of there is no players to choose from in NZ your dreaming. A ton of kiwi junior talent are making debuts for Nrl Teams at the moment while the junior talent at the warriors just sits and watchs as the average players continue to put in nuf nuf performances for the warriors. Trust me Player talent makes a huge difference to teams, winning ones anyway. Take your head out of the sand and find an attitude that says I dont want to lose nomore, Its time now to change and be an effective winner!!!!!!!
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
How many successful offloads did we see the Warriors execute tonight? One player after another trying to plough his way through the opposition over and over... yes, it takes someone to break through the line in a burst of speed every now and then, but that only works if you`ve got someone to pass the ball to and carry it on forward for a try. An offensive team effort, fluid execution, setting up big plays... not happening at the moment.
 

warriors4life_old

Guest
What happened to the throw around football of 2002 that Ivan promised to bring back this season? In 2002 and 2003 we were dubbed by many as being the most exciting team in the NRL, now we are possibly the most boring.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
STRIDER said:
Bullsh*t Skinny Ravs, Yourve been suckered!!! Dynamic players win Games. Look at West Tigers last season, They werent big but had some very dynamic players. Webb, Byrne are not dynamic, infact they are very average players!!!!

Average players wont win you sh*t

I reckon if your gonna take a attitude of there is no players to choose from in NZ your dreaming. A ton of kiwi junior talent are making debuts for Nrl Teams at the moment while the junior talent at the warriors just sits and watchs as the average players continue to put in nuf nuf performances for the warriors. Trust me Player talent makes a huge difference to teams, winning ones anyway. Take your head out of the sand and find an attitude that says I dont want to lose nomore, Its time now to change and be an effective winner!!!!!!!

You can have all the talent in the world on the field, Strider, but if they don`t execute AS A TEAM, they aren`t going to win games. On the other hand, you can have a winning season made up of no big name players, no super stars, and still have a winning season. That`s a fact.
 

PB_old

Guest
STRIDER said:
I Said for the last 2 seasons and I will repeat again, We just cant win Games with our ineffective Backrow. Anderson, Guttenbeil, Luck, Koopu dont have any dynamic ability at all!!!!!!!!

Sure they can compete just like the Titanic could travel but in the end the titanic sunk just like the Warriors continuely in Games.

Get rid of

Webb
Byrne
Ropati
Martin
Guttenbeil
Luck
Koopu

and swap some players postions and bring in some dynamic talent Rookie or not and try to blast oppostiobn sides open

Y'know, I agree on the whole impact thing Strider, as well as a different overall style, and rookies do need to be introduced to achieve this, but you're being hard on Byrne, Koopu and certainly Luck. Webb has also served well but I've never seen him as a fullback. His best moments have come at dummy half against the Broncos and at test level when at 2nd receiver. The others you have a point with and movement is one of many options open to Ivan.

A team will not succeed if it invests in players who are only dynamic, and to get both takes either patience with talented juniors or plenty of pull. The public and the books can't deal with the former and we don't have the latter for obvious reason. There is a balance and yep, we don't have it as we are leaning away from the rip and bust style. Of course, overcompensating and dropping guys all over the show is also counterproductive.

Seems to me that poor last tackle options and handling are the Warriors main culprit in the current set up along with the odd very bad solo performance. How can you show any attacking qualities if your own team is responsible for sitting you on your ass? Early days for Ivan and as far as I'm concerned he has the right to fix the issues you have raised under his own steam and Round 2 is a bit soon to be expecting what you are asking, even if you are right.

Amerikiwi and SkinnyRav, there is raw talent there as you say and it will take time to harness - true. But not all of it is on the field or in the right position and not all if it can be fixed by coaching. These are skilled athletes that have the physical ability to play at a professional level. Certain things should be a given, the fundamentals of the job. Once the basics become an exception and not the norm we are in trouble. It's close. Where I side with Strider most - although it may not be his reasoning - is the need to rip open the opposition. My reasoning is that in NZ we cannot play the patient game. We don't know how. In Aussie it's what they get taught first and it takes most of our players exposure to the same systems to catch up. When they do the flair talent they have gets amplified, and you get Marshall, Williams. If Stacey didn't stay at the Warriors I truly belive he would have been considered as good as Johns.

Now in optimistic mode, I say we'll beat the Tigers next week. We can't possibly play that badly in succession. (There's a bit of wood to knock on somewhere here). If we do the spoon is ours for the taking.
 

Northern_Union

Guest
AmeriKiwi said:
Sorry, Matty, but effective coaching MAKES players accountable for the way they execute on the field. A lack of strong coaching ALLOWS players to be unaccountable for their actions, which we saw plenty of tonight.

You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear....in other words Cleary can only do so much with what he's got.
 

northwarrior_old

Guest
I Say we need talent at stand off....I mean real talent. Real talent can make ordinary players look great on the out side of him. It would ease the burden on the half too.
Get Sione back in the secong row if will give us better attack and more little men with smarts on the park...in other words some more options. But at the end of the day we really need some to stand up and grab the game by the neck and run the plays his way.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
Good post, Polar Bob... looked to me like the Eels played basic, fundamental football for the most part tonight and won the game as a result. The Warriors failed in basic ways and lost as a result. Although the players certainly are skilled athletes, as you correctly said, it`s very easy to lose sight of basics during the heat of the game. I have confidence Cleary knows how to correct mistakes on the field and he`ll soon decide which players are best suited for each position... he`s said on several occasions that building the Warriors into a winning team will take time, and I agree. No fan wants to hear that, though, myself included... the truth is it WILL require time to turn a losing team into a winning team, whether or not we like the idea.
In the meanwhile, all any of us can do as fans is to cheer them on and give them time to achieve their goals.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
RS_Dragon said:
AmeriKiwi said:
Sorry, Matty, but effective coaching MAKES players accountable for the way they execute on the field. A lack of strong coaching ALLOWS players to be unaccountable for their actions, which we saw plenty of tonight.

You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear....in other words Cleary can only do so much with what he's got.

Good point, RS... good coaching involves both recognizing and developing the best talent available and using it. That`s all the coaching staff (not just Cleary) can do... and that`s what he`s in the process of trying to do. On the other hand, you`re also limited to making the best with what you`ve got, as well. There`s a lot of fine tuning that needs to be done with "what we`ve got", and that`s where solid coaching comes in... helping each player to step up to his best potential, more physical playing, developing better game plans and strategies. So it comes down to making the most with what you have to work with, as you say.
 

da mad maori

Guest
THeres only ONE person right here and thats ME !!!

The forwards are killing our style.!!!!

for example

PRICE.....HIT_UP
WIKI.......HIT_UP
GUTES....HIT_UP
Maybe one more
..............HIT_UP.

Thats our problem.
We're blaming our backs for not getting on with the job. How can they when our pack is using up a major part of our tackle count.
Just take a look at Hindmarsh, and what he does. One "HIT_UP", the next time he gets the ball he takes a couple of paces then passes the ball on. Just because you're a front-rower doesnt' mean you dont have to pass the ball on. It s all good and well to look at the stats after the game and see three or more forwards make twenty hit-ups with a metreage of such-n-such. If even half of those were 'off-loads' then we'd have a more than even chance of scoring tries.
And still going on, we dont have anyone with that "killer"instinct in the pack. One who makes metreage with "venom". Wiki is our closest.
So , for mine, in one set of six, we've got to focus on at least two off-loads from our pack, just to keep the ball alive.
Right now even I can predict what each of our forwards are going to do.
 

AmeriKiwi_old

Guest
I said the same exact thing in a couple of other posts here, DMM. Why isn`t the ball being offloaded and why do the same individual players keep trying to plough their way into the end/try zone all alone? They`re going nowhere fast that way.
 

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