General Sack The Players

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
18,752
The Sack coach cappy thread reads like a tennis match of a Warrior fan kind.

There are those who hit the ball in anger about the coach.....and those that return serve in anger about the players. Both parties are guilty of clinging to long held hoary old arguments.

This thread title is somewhat tongue in cheek inspired by NZWARRIORS forum vernacular and culture......it's either sack this and sack that....or thread titles read like a C.I. channel forensic show.....' residue every where' ........residual value this....and residual value that.


Lets be clear here.


There are two great tensions in Warrior land. There are the group of pitch fork wavers that want to lynch the coach, and there are the moderates who are sick of the same blame culture of coaches and defend the coaching position without necessarily being McFadden worshipers (they get labelled as such by bug eyed coach sackers who are too fired up to see nuances of language....apologist language....and careful considerate korero about seeking answers beyond the default mechanism of sack the Coach).

This is my thread so My challenge to you coach blamers is this:

The most popular anti coach argument is that the Warriors have had a string of crap coaches and they need a super coach.

'No super coach has agreed to come here


To my way of thinking, what is the use of banging on about getting a super coach if this is in reality a pipe dream. Mind you signing Isaac Luke and Roger Tuivasa-Sheck in one season is a pipe dream realised...as is the addition of Jim Doyle.....so Super coach dreamers are fully entitled to keep on dreaming.

I believe that a Super Coach would look at twenty years of NZ style failure in the NRL...through Aussie trained glasses....and replace the players.

A super coach is not going to have time to teach the NZ Product ABC in the first grade side. Their experience is from systems where only one letter or two of the Alphabet needs teaching, not the whole alphabet.
Remember your Super coach has never come to a system where they haven't been able to sell an Australian life style as part of the package....ergo they have never faced the challenge of a franchise that won't readily attract the majority of talent across the depth of the NRL because of the life style upheaval.

What's wrong with our players ?

Rugby league, or any competitive activity.....at it's very highest level.....requires mental and physical attributes.

The raw material has to be there in the first instance, to put it crudely....you can get away with the odd dumb Prop (smart Props are essential, Dumb Props can be made allowances for in your squad as long as they are in the minority).

Dumb backs in the modern game...when I say dumb I really mean un teachable.....have even less value in the modern game than Dumb forwards.

It's a Darwinian thing.

The game has evolved.

The Dumb big power running dinosaurs time is reaching it's end.

Our players are not dumb by in large...we just have more dummies than other teams.


To get the mental side right....players have to be bred in systems where they are mentally challenged in their formative experience (the ABC). This does not happen in NZ.

In NZ they breed good ball runners and big hitters...off loaders....and that is all. Modern Rugby league is highly technical....the average NZ skill set would only qualify you to sit on the bench of a thinking team....and be used as an impact player.

All other categories of rugby league are either incidental (by chance, per some unique footy experience of an individuals life experience of footy...say Dad was a great coach...or the local coach happened to be a special).


No coach can take on the entire Warrior problem:

Ivan Cleary was a good coach. However he failed.

If the coach Sacking mentality was followed in Ivan's day, he would not have got past year three....to reach the lofty heights of an inconsistent 2011...with a fluke Semi......that saw a final against a highly Mentally advanced team in the form of Manly in the GF.

Daniel Anderson on the other hand, was the only coach who allowed the NZ way of playing and converted it to a winning style.

I don't think people who call for Sacking our coaches appreciate how uniquely Anderson's (skills as a teacher of basics}....fitted with the Warriors deficits.

A Super coach is by no means guaranteed to have the break it down school teacher way of educating a Warrior.....remember those top coaches are used to working with more complete products,

Where we are at now under McFadden:

As Blake Ayshford admitted....it is very difficult to adjust to playing with the Warriors lead play maker and super star go to man.

Blake knows what he is talking about.

Keiran Foran knows what Blake is taking about.

Keiran is the consumate NZ brainy player. He struggled to play his game next to our go too guy,....and Blakes other comparison Marshall.

If it is hard for Blake now.....even with his previous experience....imagine how hard it was for the following failed combinations:

SJ Malone
SJ TL
SJ Townsend
SJ Robson.

Blake said you cannot predict what SJ will do....all that does is lead to dropped balls....(sound relevant regarding our clunky years of backline play and turn overs ? )

" All you can do is go with the flow "

Well people......doesn't that sound like a metaphor for the last twenty years of Warriors not looking like other NRL teams ?


Does that not sound like all the cliches of Reggae footy and unpredictable wonder that is the Warriors ?

Does that not tell you....that unless you make wholesale player changes.....that the coaches word is going to fall on deaf ears...when senior players around our main talents....have no idea what they are going to do next ?

Is the coach to blame for that ?

Ten coaches have failed to find the answer to making our style work.

The obvious cheat would be to say bugger our style, lets import their style and use only a sprinkle of our unconventional locals.

The ratio of Warriors that the Kiwis use would just about do it.
 
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Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
18,752
The funny thing is, we have been sacking players - routinely.

https://www.nzwarriors.com/threads/warriors-recruitment-and-rumour-mill-2016.45790/

The problem is their replacements end up doing the same shit as the players they replaced.

Its not the coach, its not the players, its the club.

Someone needs to start a sack the club thread now.
I take your point and somewhat agree.

If you read the game day threads where we lose...you will see brilliant in depth analysis of symptoms.

What Warrior fans and club alike....are not good at...is understanding the syndrome / the disease...that causes the symptoms.

The problem is infectious,....and when you import players it spreads to them quickly.

I will give you a couple of examples.

The SJ one was not meant to pick on him...rather explain why we don't look like other NRL teams.

People raise the specter of the spectacular failure of Storm players in our system.

They are like Organ donor transplants...if you ask me...without tissue type matching.....the Warrior body rejects them....very quickly they become useless.

As such imports could be argued to be somewhat of a waste.

I think this is true only in as much as you are prepared to introduce them to a team lead by Warrior U20's thinking.

The same is particularly true of our coaches...they transplant worse than any other attempt at altering the Warrior way....their life expectancy reflects it.
 
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surfin

Warriors 1st Grader
May 9, 2012
6,002
Coromandel
The funny thing is, we have been sacking players - routinely.

https://www.nzwarriors.com/threads/warriors-recruitment-and-rumour-mill-2016.45790/

The problem is their replacements end up doing the same shit as the players they replaced.

Its not the coach, its not the players, its the club.

Someone needs to start a sack the club thread now.

We could restart the club and we could rename them the Phoenix, as in rising from the ashes, and maybe they could look at moving to Wellington. May work.
 

jonno

Warriors 1st Grader
Jul 13, 2014
9,803
Sack the refs....

Bomb the bunker...



Edit: When I say bomb the bunker I mean graffiti bomb, with nasty sayings like "the refs need glasses" and other harsh statements like that...
 

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,635
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
Easy copy and paste from another thread...

I dont buy the sack the players line anymore. Cappy has had long enough to build and mould his team. You look at how much the team has changed since he took the reigns in 2014 and you can see he has left his mark all over it. The only players in the team that wont be re-signed from the current lot that Im aware of are Sione Lousi and John Palavi. Both players were re-signed just after Cappy was made coach.

This Cappy's team. These are his players.

No more excuses...

Released since 2014

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Recruited since 2014

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Debuted since 2014*

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Re-signed Since 2014**

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* since Round 6 2014
** players who were signed before Cappys tenure as Head Coach but re-signed after he was coach
 

MeetTheMonster

Warriors Bench Player
Mar 2, 2016
117
The Globe
The warriors are a beyond poorly run business, they never followed the golden rule of cutting players when their stocks drop. They continue to play players who are sub-par in the NRL. Sentimental maybe?

Of all the players listed above only these players would be considered world class recruits.

Sam Tomkins
Ryan Hoffman
Issac Luke
RTS

The following are the best of rest in the C+ to B+ category

Jacob Lillyman
Bodene Thompson
Feleti Mateo

C class players and lower liter the warriors books historically since 2003 and pretty much represents how shit the club has become in the NRL and why nobody believes in the Warriors anymore. Possibly the worst recruitment and development club in the history of the NRL. And that is no flippant statement. The warriors are not taken seriously by anyone anymore. You give jobs to the boys this is what you get. Joke and embarrassment is not even being fair to have much of a disgrace the warriors are now today.
 

Apus

1st Grade Fringe
Sep 6, 2012
1,266
We sack the players after we get a coach so said coach can build his own team.

We all know that at the end of the season if we don't make the 8 (at the very least) Cappy is gone. It's entirely up to the next coach to make the right calls on the players. If this is an issue with attitude solely on the players behalf then Cappy has fucked up and deserves to be fired.

If we stick with Cappy AND have massive player turn over, nothing will change, he has already had his chance. If we get in another coach, we will highly likely see quite a bit of player turn over, so you'll get your wish regardless.
 

mode81

1st Grade Fringe
Jul 25, 2012
2,999
Club's pretty much backed themselves into a corner making Hoffman skipper.. Hoffman hasn't been in any semblance of form since the 2014 Origin series so as low as his stats and work rate are they pretty much can't drop him and he's one of the worst under performers in this team.
 

Pete

1st Grade Fringe
Oct 3, 2012
875
Which players do we get the least value for money or bang for your buck? Louis probably leads that group. Someone trick him into a sackable offence so we can bring in a player for the same worth who can contribute. Must be shit for him to know he is a drain on the resources and for whatever reason can't make the grade. I wonder if its attitude or injuries. His agent must be a legend.
 

Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
18,752
We sack the players after we get a coach so said coach can build his own team.

We all know that at the end of the season if we don't make the 8 (at the very least) Cappy is gone. It's entirely up to the next coach to make the right calls on the players. If this is an issue with attitude solely on the players behalf then Cappy has fucked up and deserves to be fired.

If we stick with Cappy AND have massive player turn over, nothing will change, he has already had his chance. If we get in another coach, we will highly likely see quite a bit of player turn over, so you'll get your wish regardless.
Well said Apus Apus either way people are going to get fired if we fail this year.

I don't want us to fail, I don't want our players to get sacked.

I expected a bad loss against Manly (not being a smart alec, or very clever in expecting that one to go badly).

You can see that we aren't quite settled yet even in our victories.

What we need now is for the team to move on from that Loss and play two really hard to beat NRL sides in a row.....the Warriors have had a couple of confidence building wins....a morale destroying beating.....now they need to settle.

I am more confident about beating the dogs and storm than beating that Manly side at that particular point in time.

This is where the players need to dig into their season. Fight back hard against hard opponents.....if they can do that....we are on our way.
 
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mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,635
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
Kieran foran was the missing link for 2016 to be successful I strongly believe
He would've been a great combination with johnson
Our salary cap would have also had to be missing to pull that off. Dont forget we only got RTS and Issac Luke after Foran turned us down. I dont believe we would have had the money to make a play for both.

Foran has a get out of jail card if the Eels get done on the salary cap rort. Sure the club will be sniffing around if so...
 

MeetTheMonster

Warriors Bench Player
Mar 2, 2016
117
The Globe
Wasted salary is Simon Mannering, Shaun Johnson, Jacob Lillyman, Issac Luke, Jeff Robson, Jonathan Wright, Blake Asyhford

There is some guys listed there on big bucks and they are the reason the Warriors suck so bad. Reputation only. Shaun Johnson is a franchise wrecker, never shows up except against no name teams and lives off that reputation. No player goes missing more in the NRL than that guy, not a rookie anymore, no excuses left, he is an fraud, stick him at fullback and get some value out of him. At 6 or 7 he is wasted money and team sinker.

Simon Mannering should be shipped off immediately living off reputation forged 4 or 5 seasons ago. Fan favorite who lives of just that. Guy would not get a start anywhere else, he now resembles a poor mans Ben Creagh! most ineffective 2nd rower going around

Lillyman, is an old school prop, so that's why he gets a career at the warriors who must have an 80's playbook in the coaches box. He's a dud guys and a complete momentum killer.

Issac Luke came here on a holiday, he basically was the reason we lost to Manly, refused to run from Dummy half and killed off any semi go forward we have. What a dud signing he has been, wasted money yet again, totally unacceptable!!!

Jeff Robson, Jonathan Wright, Blake Asyhford ..................... How are these guys playing first grade in the NRL? why arnt they in reserve grade? ...... oh that's right they got resurrected lives to sign up at the Warriors. Think the Warriors watched moneyball and thought we can do this too, got that wrong hard.

Guys like Kata, Vatuvei RTS, Lolohea, Leuluai, Thompson, Hoffman, Matulino, Tevaga, Vete, and to a degree Gubb have a big upside to them if invested and developed properly. But DOYLE and CAPPY are frauds if they continue to bank the salaries of SJ, Mannering, Lillyman etc - terrible investments just there for gate taking value, forget the sentiment, these guys do not produce on the field. They are dead stocks.

Issac Luke needs to be reprimanded for his performances!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNACCEPTABLE
 

mt.wellington

Warriors Orange Peeler
Jun 21, 2012
22,635
Mt. Wellington, Auckland
Simon Mannering should be shipped off immediately living off reputation forged 4 or 5 seasons ago. Fan favorite who lives of just that. Guy would not get a start anywhere else, he now resembles a poor mans Ben Creagh! most ineffective 2nd rower going around
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Sup42

Warriors 1st Grader
May 7, 2012
18,752
Wasted salary is Simon Mannering, Shaun Johnson, Jacob Lillyman, Issac Luke, Jeff Robson, Jonathan Wright, Blake Asyhford

There is some guys listed there on big bucks and they are the reason the Warriors suck so bad. Reputation only. Shaun Johnson is a franchise wrecker, never shows up except against no name teams and lives off that reputation. No player goes missing more in the NRL than that guy, not a rookie anymore, no excuses left, he is an fraud, stick him at fullback and get some value out of him. At 6 or 7 he is wasted money and team sinker.

Simon Mannering should be shipped off immediately living off reputation forged 4 or 5 seasons ago. Fan favorite who lives of just that. Guy would not get a start anywhere else, he now resembles a poor mans Ben Creagh! most ineffective 2nd rower going around

Lillyman, is an old school prop, so that's why he gets a career at the warriors who must have an 80's playbook in the coaches box. He's a dud guys and a complete momentum killer.

Issac Luke came here on a holiday, he basically was the reason we lost to Manly, refused to run from Dummy half and killed off any semi go forward we have. What a dud signing he has been, wasted money yet again, totally unacceptable!!!

Jeff Robson, Jonathan Wright, Blake Asyhford ..................... How are these guys playing first grade in the NRL? why arnt they in reserve grade? ...... oh that's right they got resurrected lives to sign up at the Warriors. Think the Warriors watched moneyball and thought we can do this too, got that wrong hard.

Guys like Kata, Vatuvei RTS, Lolohea, Leuluai, Thompson, Hoffman, Matulino, Tevaga, Vete, and to a degree Gubb have a big upside to them if invested and developed properly. But DOYLE and CAPPY are frauds if they continue to bank the salaries of SJ, Mannering, Lillyman etc - terrible investments just there for gate taking value, forget the sentiment, these guys do not produce on the field. They are dead stocks.

Issac Luke needs to be reprimanded for his performances!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNACCEPTABLE
I disagree quite strongly with a lot of the this, however I totally get how someone can get this frustrated with the squad. Good on you for not holding back man.
 

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