General Player Power/coups

[Raurimu Massive]

Possibly not the right place for this thread, but it does relate to the rumours of players derailing the season due to dissatisfaction with Bluey.

I was speaking yesterday with a guy who played both Super 12 and provincial rugby for quite a few years, and as a league fan himself he's made acquaintances with quite a few NRL players from the past. I made a comment about the rumours of player unrest in 2012, and he said "You'd be absolutely amazed at how often players either want to, or do, take control of the team in some way." He said that there'd been no less than three player coups in top level teams he'd played in, one of them went as far as sitting the coach down and telling him that "for the rest of the season, you're only the coach on paper".

Also mentioned that the same sort of thing happens in the NRL, whether it's players actively taking over (like Leeds did with Bluey) or players not putting in the effort because they know they're going to win before they even get on field, and even players pretending injuries are worse than they are to avoid playing.

He was saying that for the players to get to that sort of mindset, there are serious problems in the team and club; also made the comment that even in a small community like NZ, the general public is blissfully ignorant of team dynamics, and what really goes on. I'd asked him about a provincial legend that he'd played with for most of his career, a guy who was constantly held up as a paragon of NZ rugby virtue and toughness. He just laughed and said the guy got no respect whatsoever from any team-mates, and even junior players never looked up to him. Nearly his entire reputation came from looking like a hard man, and doing lots of fundraising for his club.

 

[facefacts]

Possibly not the right place for this thread, but it does relate to the rumours of players derailing the season due to dissatisfaction with Bluey.

I was speaking yesterday with a guy who played both Super 12 and provincial rugby for quite a few years, and as a league fan himself he's made acquaintances with quite a few NRL players from the past. I made a comment about the rumours of player unrest in 2012, and he said "You'd be absolutely amazed at how often players either want to, or do, take control of the team in some way." He said that there'd been no less than three player coups in top level teams he'd played in, one of them went as far as sitting the coach down and telling him that "for the rest of the season, you're only the coach on paper".

Also mentioned that the same sort of thing happens in the NRL, whether it's players actively taking over (like Leeds did with Bluey) or players not putting in the effort because they know they're going to win before they even get on field, and even players pretending injuries are worse than they are to avoid playing.

He was saying that for the players to get to that sort of mindset, there are serious problems in the team and club; also made the comment that even in a small community like NZ, the general public is blissfully ignorant of team dynamics, and what really goes on. I'd asked him about a provincial legend that he'd played with for most of his career, a guy who was constantly held up as a paragon of NZ rugby virtue and toughness. He just laughed and said the guy got no respect whatsoever from any team-mates, and even junior players never looked up to him. Nearly his entire reputation came from looking like a hard man, and doing lots of fundraising for his club.

Which is why the most successful clubs these days not only have talented coaches, but coaches who have more power than their players.....there's nothing better than having a rookie coach to blame a bad season on, not only for the players but management to. Now if you're a player in a team coached by the likes of Bennett, Hasler or Bellamy, you better leave thoughts of a coup to cover up your own bad performances behind, because it'll be your ass being shown the door, not the coaches.

 

[¿N. ig-mah¿]

I am not sure if I believe the rumoured player revolt at the Warriors this year.

But I have no doubt it happens. It has been in the media a few times. David Kidwell, and Roy Asotasi for the Kiwis, for an example.

I think that unless you are a really outspoken player like Willy Mason, you should keep your head down and let others make the move on the coach. It is in a players best interests to be considered a team player, rather than a shit-stirrer. And if rumours such as Johnson getting on the piss the night before and into the early hours of gameday are proven to be right, after the season the club had, and the badly timed announcement of his ambition to go to Sevens, he would not be a popular player amongst coaches. I would assume a coach would be likely to use a player like that as an example to others about respect and appropriate behaviour (only an example, not specifically saying he is a trouble-maker). An early setting of the ground rules by a new coach using players with big reputations and expectations would be a good way of letting the team know how far you will go. (MacGuire was a good example of this with dropping Issac Luke, a player many would expect to have his place in the team locked up).

 

[Xfactor]

Which is why the most successful clubs these days not only have talented coaches, but coaches who have more power than their players.....there's nothing better than having a rookie coach to blame a bad season on, not only for the players but management to. Now if you're a player in a team coached by the likes of Bennett, Hasler or Bellamy, you better leave thoughts of a coup to cover up your own bad performances behind, because it'll be your ass being shown the door, not the coaches.

And that's why acquiring a Bellamy/Hasler grade coach would be pointless without 110% backing of his methods and decisions by the highest levels of Warriors management.
That is also why, imo, we need someone with no ties to NZ, it's people, it's communities, or it's traditions. Not ignorance of....just no ties to!
A foreign coach willing to relocate himself and his family, to potentially cause major unrest among the fans, is a very big ask. Money aint everything!

 

[Qtownwarrior]

I know a lot of other's on here have the inside scoop on the goings on this season within the warriors, but for someone like myself I couldn't pick what went wrong amongst the team and always had this feeling in the back of my head that a player revolt/coup had occurred quite early on in the season, wether it was as a group or individually it would be a shame either way.

 

[facefacts]

And that's why acquiring a Bellamy/Hasler grade coach would be pointless without 110% backing of his methods and decisions by the highest levels of Warriors management.
That is also why, imo, we need someone with no ties to NZ, it's people, it's communities, or it's traditions. Not ignorance of....just no ties to!
A foreign coach willing to relocate himself and his family, to potentially cause major unrest among the fans, is a very big ask. Money aint everything!

Just because of those coaches stature in the game, and consistent success, not to mention their price tags, would ensure 110% backing by any club that signs them.

I completely agree about the need for a coach without any ties to NZ, particularly the Kiwi's or Warriors...the bro culture that comes from being part of those teams or closely affiliated with them, can i think cause some very poor decisions to be made, just because of some ridiculous sense of loyalty to current or past members of those teams.

 

[Navigator]

Makes sence as alot of the time I'd go to work and get asked how the hell did your guys (The Warriors) perform so bad.......it may just take that one bad apple with out the snr players around to turn the bunch. just my Thoughts.....

 

[olek_skillgannon]

And that's why acquiring a Bellamy/Hasler grade coach would be pointless without 110% backing of his methods and decisions by the highest levels of Warriors management.
That is also why, imo, we need someone with no ties to NZ, it's people, it's communities, or it's traditions. Not ignorance of....just no ties to!
A foreign coach willing to relocate himself and his family, to potentially cause major unrest among the fans, is a very big ask. Money aint everything!

warriors are a new zealand team..the coach should be a nz'r .... say what you want about rugby but at least the rugby teams in new zealand are all about promoting local talent players and coaches.....whereas the warriors brown nose australians....

 

[Navigator]

warriors are a new zealand team..the coach should be a nz'r .... say what you want about rugby but at least the rugby teams in new zealand are all about promoting local talent players and coaches.....whereas the warriors brown nose australians....

and the aussies took Deans......

 

[¿N. ig-mah¿]

warriors are a new zealand team..the coach should be a nz'r .... say what you want about rugby but at least the rugby teams in new zealand are all about promoting local talent players and coaches.....whereas the warriors brown nose australians....

The rugby franchises are owned in whole or part by the NZRU. It is quite a different kettle of fish to a privately owned franchise in an AUSTRALIAN competition. There is no obligation for any loyalty to NZ. It is a business involved in an off-shore comp, that just happens to be based in NZ. The Warriors are an NZ-based franchise of an Australian sporting organisation.

I am a proud Kiwi, but my national team is my national team, while my favourite NRL team is simply my favourite NRL team, and not an attempted replica of my national team.

The purpose of the Warriors is to attempt to win the NRL. As a part of this, they take part in the Toyota Cup to develop players, and as a part of their obligation to the comp, and also have a team represented in the NSW Cup to offer players a lower level to develop at. If the team makes a profit from this, then thats a bonus. There is no requirement for the team to offer homegrown talent a way up the ladder. That is simply a biproduct.

 

[olek_skillgannon]

and the aussies took Deans......

thats the australian rugby union.... not the new zealand rugby union....

 

[PolarBob]

warriors are a new zealand team..the coach should be a nz'r

Nah. Used to beleive that shit. Don't care now. Success is more important.

.... say what you want about rugby but at least the rugby teams in new zealand are all about promoting local talent players and coaches.....whereas the warriors brown nose australians....

NZ's national sporting code with three levels of televised competitions, a strong regional focus, and given immense importance is all about promoting local talent, and a code reliant on exposure and success in a trans-tasman competition with NZ talent spread throughout, but a poor local infrastracture has to lean on various Australian talents and expertise?

You know, I think you've got something there, Olek.

 

[Xt1ncT]

warriors are a new zealand team..the coach should be a nz'r .... say what you want about rugby but at least the rugby teams in new zealand are all about promoting local talent players and coaches.....whereas the warriors brown nose australians....

What do you think the Toyota Cup does for the Warriors?

Helps us promote and recruit young talent - we've even taken a number of players from Union - Omar and Hurrell for instance.

 

[gREVUS]

warriors are a new zealand team..the coach should be a nz'r .... say what you want about rugby but at least the rugby teams in new zealand are all about promoting local talent players and coaches.....whereas the warriors brown nose australians....

just want to confirm i have this right - you would rather have a team of "pure Kiwis" (so that would exclude yourself of course) rather than a team that has the ability, drive and comitment, irrelevent of country of origin?

Also i note that there is no barrier to foriegners either playing or coaching Rugby if good enough in any non international side

ala.

Blues Players
Tevita Mailau - Tonga
Chris Lowrey - Samoa
George Moala - Tonga

Ashley Draper - England

Highlanders
James Haskell - England
Siale Piutau - Tonga

do i need to go on?

 

[Spence]

just want to confirm i have this right - you would rather have a team of "pure Kiwis" (so that would exclude yourself of course) rather than a team that has the ability, drive and comitment, irrelevent of country of origin?

Also i note that there is no barrier to foriegners either playing or coaching Rugby if good enough in any non international side

ala.

Blues Players
Tevita Mailau - Tonga
Chris Lowrey - Samoa
George Moala - Tonga

Ashley Draper - England

Highlanders
James Haskell - England
Siale Piutau - Tonga

do i need to go on?

I agree with your point, but I think you can find a better example of a Samoan than Lowrey?

 

[Sparky]

Er...erm........

I'm not Toilet Duck, obviously, but in the first page of this thread it's already veered from Player Revolts to Player Nationality/Racial Heritage.

OK carry on. *ducks*